Message-ID: <438097C8.1070405@naggum.no> From: Erik Naggum Organization: Ungregarious News User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.12) Gecko/20051007 Netscape/7.3 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en, nb, no, da, sv, de-de, de, fr-fr, fr MIME-Version: 1.0 To: SKEPSIS:; Subject: Re: placebo References: <000001c5ede4$6fcb7ba0$800101df@barakiroth.net> In-Reply-To: <000001c5ede4$6fcb7ba0$800101df@barakiroth.net> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.93.0.0 OpenPGP: id=C5FF736C5CF1E9FD; url=http://naggum.no/erik/C5FF736C5CF1E9FD.asc Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha1; boundary="------------ms060507010408090601080801" X-Spam-Score: -1.1 (-) Sender: diskusjon-admin@lists.skepsis.no Errors-To: diskusjon-admin@lists.skepsis.no X-BeenThere: diskusjon@lists.skepsis.no X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Skepsis generelle diskusjonsliste List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2005 15:35:36 +0000 This is a cryptographically signed message in MIME format. --------------ms060507010408090601080801 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit * Øyvind Roth @2005-11-20 15:09Z > Det står å lese: "..., they often feel less pain - an effect that > has normally been considered psychological. Recent studies, though, > suggest otherwise. ..." > > Que...?! Som den ateist jeg er, har jeg alltid trodd at psykologiske > prosesser bare var en samvirkning av synapser og transmittorer? Dette er da ukontroversielt og enkelt? Dersom alt tyder på at signalene som gir opphav til smerte sendes og mottaes, mens du likevel /føler/ noe annet enn du har gjort under like tilfeller uten placebo-effekten sier man at effekten er psykologisk, mens dersom signalene /ikke/ sendes eller /ikke/ mottaes, er effekten nevrologisk. På et klart funksjonelt definert sted går altså hjerneaktiviteten over fra å være fysisk med enkle korrelater mellom stimuli og respons til å bli abstrakt og representasjonell med langt fra noen enkle korrelater. F eks hukommelsen som følger med en lukteerfaring. Jeg heller til den forklaringen at hjernen stiller seg inn på det den forventer å måtte forholde seg til og at man ved å forvente henholdsvis noe hyggelig eller noe smertelig, kan oppleve eksakt samme fysiske stimuli som enten hyggelige eller smertelige. Dette har ledet til mitt enkle sammendrag av den menneskelige psykes relasjon til sine fysiske omgivelser: «Du /er/ det du forventer.» -- Erik Naggum 2005-324-55529 «lectitare humanum est» Member of AAAS, ACM, AMS, APS, ASA, EMS, IMS, MAA, NMF, NYAS. http://naggum.no/nocebo -- fear of harm is by itself harmful. --------------ms060507010408090601080801 Content-Type: application/pkcs7-signature; name="smime.p7s" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="smime.p7s" Content-Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature MIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAqCAMIACAQExCzAJBgUrDgMCGgUAMIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAQAAoIIJYzCC AwwwggJ1oAMCAQICAw+UuzANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQQFADBiMQswCQYDVQQGEwJaQTElMCMGA1UE ChMcVGhhd3RlIENvbnN1bHRpbmcgKFB0eSkgTHRkLjEsMCoGA1UEAxMjVGhhd3RlIFBlcnNv bmFsIEZyZWVtYWlsIElzc3VpbmcgQ0EwHhcNMDUxMDAzMTIzNDEzWhcNMDYxMDAzMTIzNDEz WjBVMQ8wDQYDVQQEEwZOYWdndW0xDTALBgNVBCoTBEVyaWsxFDASBgNVBAMTC0VyaWsgTmFn Z3VtMR0wGwYJKoZIhvcNAQkBFg5lcmlrQG5hZ2d1bS5ubzCCASIwDQYJKoZIhvcNAQEBBQAD 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