Amazons International # 78 ************************** Contents: Today's Quotes Announcing the Amazons International Chat Club Thomas: Re: Hierarchy Among Historical Amazons? Ingar: Re: Hierarchy Among Historical Amazons? John: Review: "Playing Hard" by Tina Troy Jamie: New URL for "Dogs Don't Know Kung Fu" Thomas: Matriarchy or Equality? Date of publication: 16.06.2001 ********************************************************************* TODAY'S QUOTES "A whole band of foreigners will be unable to cope with one Celt in a fight if he calls in his wife, stronger than he by far and with flashing eyes; least of all when she swells her neck and gnashes her teeth, and poising her huge white arms, begins to rain blows mingled with kicks like shots discharged by the twisted cords of a catapult." -- Ammianus Marcellinus, _Res Gestae_, 392 A.D. "Muscles look better on a woman." -- LauraWil96@yahoo.com ********************************************************************* From: Thomas Gramstad Subject: ANNOUNCING THE AMAZONS INTERNATIONAL CHAT CLUB I have created a new group at yahoo.com, entitled Amazons International Chat. The Chat is an addition to the AI newsletter, and should be well-suited for: o brief, informal, social postings o messages with a time-limited interest, such as announcements of news, events, meetings etc. o real-time chatting o sharing of pictures and sound files o questions and replies about book, movie, video and multimedia references, food supplements, recommended exercises, training equipment, etc. etc. o information about web sites, forums, clubs and other Internet resources o no contacts ads; you can find that elsewhere, for example from Yahoo's top page o I want a positive, upbeat, and supportive tone; no abuse or flame wars I hope this will be a good addi(c)tion to the AI newsletter. It will also give AI a visible presence at Yahoo.com and help attract new subscribers to the AI newsletter. (The number of newsletter subscribers is steady at about 1400). I expect and will maintain pretty much the same quality and style in the AI chat as in the newsletter, even if the chat is more informal. Basically, if what you are planning to post is something you wouldn't want your 15-16 year old daughter to see or hear, take it elsewhere. Then again, I perceive most 15-16 year olds, especially girls perhaps, to be generally mature enough to know most of the facts of life and to be considered young adults or close enough, so this is an advocacy of class or style, rather than puritanism. Be, speak and act adult -- but not adult in the pornographic or sleazy sense. If you do a keyword search at Yahoo.com for clubs or groups that contain words like "amazons", "female fighter", "women's bodybuilding" and the like, you will find a huge number of clubs, and most of them are less than a year old, many only a few months, or weeks, or even days, old. So there is clearly a boom happening right now. Most of these groups are highly specialized with a tight focus; like "Female Biceps", or "Amazon Pirates in History", or "Black Women Bodybuilders in the New York Area", or "Male Feminists Unite", or "Biker Babes with Serious Muscles". Or personal fan clubs of various shows, actresses, athletes or characters such as literally hundreds of clubs dedicated to various aspects of Xena, Chyna, Wonder Woman etc. That's good. We need a lot of specialized groups. Amazons International, however, will continue to be a generalist group -- a forum for those who see or want to be a part of a bigger picture, a meeting ground for the whole spectrum of, and therefore widely different perspectives on, Amazons. But can there really be a picture big enough to encompass and/or develop a common ground for feminist historians, heroic feminist fantasy fans, biker babes, feminist archaeologists, action heroine movie fans, male feminists, bicep fetishists, lesbians and role playing gamers? The 10 year history of Amazons International seems to suggest such a possibility. You can find the Amazons International Chat club page here: . You can join it directly at that page, by a simple two-click process. You can read postings without joining it, but for access to the other club features and services you must be a member. Here's the AI chat presentation from that page: Amazons International (AI) is an e-mail, text-only newsletter for and about Amazons and their friends and supporters. Read more and subscribe to the AI newsletter here: . You can find archives of all previous issues of the newsletter at this web address: . That's the newsletter; now to this Yahoo club. The purpose of the AI Chat club is to provide short, quick notes, chat, messaging, photo exchange etc. for the newsletter subscribers. While the AI newsletter is moderated and intended for longer, more thoughtful postings and mini-essays that takes some time to edit and publish, the AI Chat is for immediate and informal talk. If you sign up for this AI Chat club at Yahoo, please also sign up for the AI newsletter at . Thomas Gramstad, ********************************************************************* From: Thomas Gramstad Reply-To: thomas@ifi.uio.no Subject: Re: Hierarchy Among Historical Amazons? (Re: AI # 77) Knikitta asked a very good question in AI # 77 : > I am trying to find out if the Amazons had a 'pecking' order. > I mean, I know there was a queen (some say two) in the groups or > tribes, but did they have like a second in command or anything > like that, and if they did, what were the correct titles that > they were given? Unfortunately I don't have a really good answer to this question -- we don't really know for sure about this regarding the historical Amazons. According to some -- see for example Leo Crowley's article, _Matriarchy Defined_, available at (I also discuss this article in "Matriarchy and Equality" below) -- there were two queens: one ruled in domestic affairs, and the other ruled during war. But this is part of ancient Greek myths, and the Greeks distorted the history and perception of Amazons whenever it suited them. In Ingar Knudtsen's new forthcoming book, his fourth book about an ancient Amazon society (see my notes about this in AI # 77), his emphasis is on the social and political aspects of an Amazon society, as seen through the eyes of the main characters. He is an anarchafeminist (concept explained at ), and he explores some of the problems with hierarchies and hierarchical tendencies in his book. While I too favor anarchafeminism, I'm also fascinated by the authority, inspiration, insight and compassion -- and sheer power -- that a good queen or leader can bring to bear. So personally I'm of a mixed mind -- on the one hand I like equality and no hierarchy, on the other hand I like female power and authority. It's a fascinating territory to explore, or even get lost in. Ingar does a good job of exploring it as it might have been in his book. But this probably doesn't help you much, especially if you're just interested in the historical perspective? Nevertheless, I think these issues are worth exploring further, also from other perspectives than the historical one. See my article "Matriarchy and Equality" below. Thomas Gramstad thomas@ifi.uio.no "Virtue is the same in man and in woman." -- Plutarch ********************************************************************* Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 23:36:51 +0200 From: "Ingar Knudtsen" Subject: Re: Hierarchy Among Historical Amazons? (Re: AI # 77) In my just finished novel I use the word "commandant" -- perhaps it ought to be replaced by a better term, but it was difficult to find any better word. Leader? I believe that since the Amazons often found themselves in a state of war, maybe they had some kind of "planning center" or strategic command, either temporarily or a permanent one. Anyway, I do hope and believe that power among the Amazons was fluid and shifting, just as it was among certain Indian tribes, where the chieftain (whether a she or a he) had a limited amount of power in peacetime. I believe that in peacetime, the real power in the Amazon society belonged with the priestesses and in the council of elders. Where "elders" do not necessarily mean a bunch of old people. When I wrote my third Amazon book, "Soul of the Lioness", I had just seen a Swedish documentary entitled "Our God is a Woman", from a matriarchal society in Africa (on the Bijagos (or Bissago) islands). This society had two councils, one for men and one for women. The men discussed mostly relatively unimportant "men's issues", while the women's council made the big political decisions and clearly had a larger scope, importance and authority than the men's council. I therefore patterned the council in my Amazon city on this model. I don't believe much in the existence of queens or royalty as in the modern meaning of those words, because the king's role was originally nothing but to become a sacrifice. To be a king meant to die by the hand of a priestess on a sacrificial altar -- until the king obtained so much power that he could let somebody else die in his place, and rise again as his own son! Perhaps that change marked the beginning of the end of the power of the priestesses? So I believe that the power in the Amazon society was shared between the priestesses (possibly including a high priestess) and the commandant(s) of the warriors. But I haven't been able to find any certain, indisputable sources on this. I'm just interpreting the relatively vague and sparse materials that deal with this question, combining my interpretations with what I want to believe. That's what historians and scientists do too, no matter how objective they think they are or claim to be. No point of view is independent of the viewer. Ingar Knudtsen i-knudts@online.no ********************************************************************* Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 14:46:41 +0100 From: John Subject: Review: "Playing Hard" by Tina Troy You may be interested in a new Black Lace book, entitled "Playing Hard", by Tina Troy. What is particularly interesting in this series book written as erotica for women in Richard Branson's Virgin Black Lace series, is that it examines the roles in domination and submission and why some men like to be dominated by women, and whether they really are dominated, and why many women find the topic tedious. It is supposed to be a light, fun read, but it has its serious points too. The author suggests, through the actions and discussions of her characters, that men who like to be physically dominated by women are showing the same feelings as a conventional woman who is sexually dominated by a man during a sexual intercourse. Erotic combat is a consensual act where the rules are laid out in advance and there is a "stop" word arranged -- it can be something quite irrelevant so that in the role play the word "stop" can be used to no effect. The stop word is usually something like "electric lawn mower", a word or phrase that would not come up during wrestling banter. Therefore neither party is *really* dominating the other. Women are programmed to get on with the serious matters of living and producing children, not playing about -- hence they are likely to be less interested in non-penetrative sex and wrestling games. Remember the old joke "My husband deals with the important matters in our family, such as how we vote, whether Britain should join the European Community, that sort of thing. I get on with the less important things, like how we will pay the mortgage, buy our food and manage the household.". "Playing Hard" was written for a general audience (or more specifically, what its publisher thinks a general audience would want), therefore it also contains quite a bit of conventional sex as well -- or "exchange of bodily fluids", as designated in the film "Dr. Strangelove". Those of the "No sex please, we're wrestlers" persuasion may therefore be disappointed in it. The book has a web site, . Sincerely, John Publisher of Wrestling Fun: contacts and articles for mixed male/female wrestling fans ********************************************************************* Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2001 09:24:31 +0100 From: Jamie O'Keefe Subject: New web site address for my book "Dogs Don't Know Kung Fu" Please note that the new web address for the book _Dogs Don't Know Kung Fu_ by Jamie O'Keefe is . The entire text of this book about self-defense for women is available online there. Jamie O'Keefe [Note from editor: see my review of this book in AI # 64 -- Thomas] ********************************************************************* From: Thomas Gramstad Subject: Matriarchy or Equality? What does "matriarchy" mean and entail, and how does it relate to equality and patriarchy? Matriarchy is a term that is imbued with many different meanings. Literally, or by virtue of its etymology, it means "motherrule" or the rule of mothers, but it is commonly used, at least in the vernacular, as a synonym for a society ruled by women, even though a more correct term for that would be _gynecocracy_ or _gynarchy_. Sometimes matriarchy is used so broadly or loosely as to encompass any society that is not a patriarchy, and thus the term becomes a synonym for 'non-patriarchal society', which includes the whole range from equality to gynarchy. However, it is better to delimit and clarify the term as scholars and researchers do. Webster's dictionary defines matriarchy as "a system of social organization in which descent and inheritance are traced through the female line". That's a good starting point. In his article _Matriarchy Defined_, available at , Leo Crowley discusses the concept of matriarchy with an eye to fluid transitional phases or intermediate stages between matriarchy and patriarchy, or degrees of matriarchy, and how the classical myths about the Amazons are related to matriarchal and patriarchal cultural changes and trends. His discussion suggests that there is a large and diverse sliding scale between the two theoretical extremes of total male domination and full female supremacy. Another definition and discussion of matriarchy can be found in the works of Heide Göttner Abendroth, a German art historian who has written several books about what she thinks modern society may learn from matriarchal cultures and goddess religion. Her most famous book is probably _Dancing Goddess: Principles of a Matriarchal Aesthetic_. Her web site contains an extensive definition of matriarchy that includes economic, social, political and cultural dimensions. See: _The Definition of Matriarchy_, . Matriarchy is different from patriarchy insofar as it does not involve a dominance hierarchy, or some people dominating or subjecting other people. There is an abundance of fantasy and science fiction stories in which traditional gender roles have been stood directly on their head, so that women rule and men are subordinates or even slaves. But this does not correspond with the scattered remains of knowledge we have about historical matriarchies. They were just differently organized, with little or no domination and submission, and they were clan-based. People belonged to and could rely on a large extended family group. Modern society is increasingly individual-based, and the idea of equality is closely connected to this individualistic perspective. An individual-based society also entails the breaking up of patriarchal power at least in some contexts (e.g., the male as absolute ruler in a nuclear family with traditional, patriarchal gender roles). What I'm leading up to with this discussion is the question and answer, "Matrarchy or equality? Yes please, both." In other words, why not try to combine the best features from both alternatives? Then let us start by assuming an individual-based society with legal, social, and political equality, that is, everybody has the same civil rights, including but not limited to free choice of occupation, education, leisure interests and soforth. And then in addition to that I'd like to see two matriarchal principles permeating the culture and society: (1) That women control human reproduction A somewhat cold formulation perhaps, but what I mean is the following. Imagine this "flowchart": A woman gets pregnant --> the woman decides alone whether she wants a baby or an abortion --> if she want a baby she decides who (if anybody) she wants to invite as a co-parent or co-parents (it could be the man who contributed the sperm, another man, a lesbian lover, a close friend, or any combination of the above) --> the invited party decides whether to accept the invitation or not (this is where the "male right to abortion" enters the picture) --> on the basis of these choices the family or social unit responsible for the child's upbringing is formed. It could be a family with one, two or more parents, with any combination of one or both sexes. "Parent" is primarily a social concept: a parent is someone who raises a child, and need not have anything to do with who contributed what genes. But this isn't equality? No and yes. No: The contribution of sperm is in fact not of equal weight and status to a pregnancy. I think males can join in and decide on equal terms with women from the day males carry the fetus for half the pregnancy and through half of the birth process -- and not before. Yes: Passing some decision imposing an artificial equality where no equality exists in nature cannot lead to real equality. If someone who does not perform a task is to decide as much over the task and its outcome as the one who does the job, then the result is not equality; instead the result is that the non-doer controls the doer. Equality in the power to make a decision presupposes equality of participation and equality in carrying the costs of the decision. The one who participates less or who carries less of the costs, should also carry correspondingly less decision power -- that's real equality. Equality presupposes participatory democracy. (2) That women control male aggression and violence This isn't a claim about biological determinism or that "men are evil". Individual men can and do resist or fight their gender role socialization and their indoctrination into aggressive macho behavior. Yet this does not happen to a sufficient extent: we still have a lot of war, violence, bullying, harassment, and soforth, and this is to a large extent the result of masculine gender roles and the attempt to solve problems and conflicts through domination. We still have a mainstream culture that teaches boys to suppress and repress their emotions, alienating them from their own as well as other people's emotions, preparing them for a lifestyle of competitiveness and domination. I don't think men are able to clean up this mess on their (our) own. I think women must enter the picture, and, indeed, _become_ the picture. I think the best for all is a culture which is gynocentric or woman-focused so that women control the institutions which have to do with aggression and force, such as the military and police. Not because women are "softer, kinder and gentler", because I don't think they are. But (1) because women haven't been put through the numbing gender role socialization that boys and men have been going through, and may therefore reasonably be expected to be more able to act without being influenced or controlled by it; (2) because such a social organization can contribute to fight down and abolish gender roles inside the heads of men and women both; and (3) because socially and physically powerful women generally are way much cooler than ditto men! But then -- with this model of general individual equality, integrated with and tempered by the two additional matriarchal principles -- we have a model for a (re)birth of an Amazon society... And then we have a classical catch 22: the Amazon society model is a great solution to the gender role socialization problem, and the gender role socialization problem is _the_ huge obstacle to acceptance of and support for the Amazon society model... Thomas Gramstad thomas@ifi.uio.no "Women's liberation is the liberation of the feminine in the man and the masculine in the woman." -- Corita Kent ******************************************************************* * Amazons International * * Thomas Gramstad, editor: thomas@ifi.uio.no * * Send postings to: thomas@ifi.uio.no * * * * SUBSCRIBE/UNSUBSCRIBE HERE: * * * * * * The Amazon Connection -- Links to Amazon web sites: * * * ******************************************************************* "A Hard Woman is Good to Find" -- The Valkyries