Amazons International # 77 ************************** Contents: Today's Quotes Knikitta: Hierarchy Among Historical Amazons? Svein Olav Nyberg: The Pregnant Strongwoman Genvieve d'Argent Chene: Bio; I love to fight! John: Erotic Wrestling and Longevity/Fitness Thomas: In Defense of Women's Bodybuilding Date of publication: 24.05.2001 ********************************************************************* TODAY'S QUOTES "We are the myths. We are the Amazons, the Furies, the witches. We have never not been here... There is something utterly familiar about us. We have been ourselves before." -- Robin Morgan "It's not blood that makes an Amazon warrior -- it's training and preparation and attitude. We need to be able to count on each other -- watch each other's back." -- Surrie (played by Katrina Browne) in _Prodigal Sister_, Hercules: The Legendary Journeys: #66/407 "Virtue is the same in man and in woman." -- Plutarch "Feminism, in contrast to "masculinism", wants to free the individual from sexist rule." -- Ingar Knudtsen "Women's liberation is the liberation of the feminine in the man and the masculine in the woman." -- Corita Kent "Of course a man and a woman are not the same. But that does not mean that a man and a man are the same, or that a woman and a woman are the same." -- Svein Olav Nyberg "Men are from Earth. Women are from Earth. Deal with it." -- Anne Eilertsen "When I hear women expressing a fear of weight lifting, what I am really hearing is a fear of being powerful. The social ideal tells women to be hungry, manageable, childlike, not demanding space. Given that our bodies are tied to our selves and spirits with tangled inextricable threads, it stands to reason that to manipulate the body is to manipulate the mind. Women who lift find that their newfound strength not only improves body confidence, but more importantly, confidence in all situations. Moreover, a strong woman learns to inhabit her body in a more positive way---it is no longer her failure but instead her ongoing success." -- Krista Scott-Dixon, Some philosophical thoughts on strong women... "I set out to use the female form as a beautiful lethal entity." -- McG (Joseph McGinty Nichol, Director of _Charlie's Angels_) "All you need to make a movie is a girl and a gun." -- Jean-Luc Godard "Kisses don't lie." -- Geena Davis ********************************************************************* Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 18:31:23 EDT From: knikitta@aol.com Subject: Monarchy/Hierarchy Among Historical Amazons? Hi, I wonder if you can help me. I had a look through your site, the Amazon Connection (I must say it is absolutely fascinating), but I didn't find what I was looking for. Maybe I was looking in the wrong place or maybe what I want doesn't even exist. I am trying to find out if the Amazons had a 'pecking' order. I mean, I know there was a queen (some say two) in the groups or tribes, but did they have like a second in command or anything like that, and if they did, what were the correct titles that they were given? Knikitta knikitta@aol.com ********************************************************************* Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 08:47:59 +0100 From: Svein Olav Nyberg Subject: The Pregnant Strongwoman It happens that women get pregnant. The patriarchal view of a pregnant woman is that even more than before she is to be treated as a helpless doll. While it is true that hormonal changes make strength feats harder due to loosening of joints, that does not mean that a woman need to succumb to the patriarchal view of who she is. Check out the new column at Cyberpump by a pregnant trainer: . Svein Olav Nyberg ********************************************************************* Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2000 10:00:57 -0400 From: Genvieve d'Argent Chene Subject: Bio; I love to fight! I am the mounted combat instructor for my area and I thought I'd introduce myself. I am the 33 year old mother of two beautiful boys and I have been an associate of the Society for Creative Anachronism (SCA; ) ever since I was twelve. I am 6' tall and weigh in at 160lbs. And I love to fight!! Mundanely, the name given to me by my mother is Judith. In the historical research and reenactment society I belong to, I have chosen Genvieve as my name. I hold training sessions for my students twice a week (Mondays & Fridays) and train on my own four times a week. Unfortunately, that really doesn't give me much free time to compose a really dashing dissertation on the joys of war. I was off at war for over two weeks. The name for my group comes from the word 'Hastilude', a term meaning 'spear games'. We are also going to explore the use of swords, maces, and bows to further our knowledge and skills. Basically, we are a group of horse enthusiasts interested in honing and developing the skills of combat and competition appropriate to the Current Middle Ages. (You need not be an active SCA member... ALL are welcome!!) We also need people interested in assisting the riders during training and competitions, similar to what a squire would do. If this interests you, PLEASE come out and play... We need you!! You can see some pictures of me here: In service to Meridies, her Crown and Populace Genvieve d'Argent Chene House Silver Oak Owl's Nest Meridies mka: Judith Hudson Marietta, Ga. ggarrett@mindspring.com ********************************************************************* Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2000 15:52:19 +0100 From: John Subject: Erotic Wrestling and Longevity/Fitness Medicine is always supposed to taste nasty. Medical treatment is supposed to feel nasty or be repulsive. Healthy living is supposed to be boring and generally unpleasant. Suppose this is all nonsense, but humanity as a whole suffers a collective illusion to believe it? Or possibly the control freaks have made most people believe it just as another apparatus of power? There seem to be a large number of men who like the idea of being given wrestling holds, and a veritable industry is appearing on the Internet of women advertising not normal sex, but an hour or so of wrestling for a few hundred dollars. Why have this industry appeared? Well, obviously the Internet enables people with what appears to be eccentric appetites to arrange for them to be gratified with little risk of rejection or humiliation. They find their appetites are not so unusual after all. But why is this tide here? I think I am correct in believing that stretching is good for you. It allows oxygen and other nutrients to flow around your musculature. There are also mental benefits from physical contact with another of (usually) the other sex. Combining the two may bring health benefits greater than either alone. Many legends about immortality suggests that to become immortal the individual must give up the ability to reproduce or even to feel anything. Suppose the truth were a little less dramatic. Suppose the sex drive could be redirected (not even entirely) to improve health and longevity? Maybe it is a previously suppressed instinct coming to the fore that is driving this wrestling phenomenon. Sincerely, John Publisher of Wrestling Fun contacts and articles for male/female wrestling fans ********************************************************************* From: Thomas Gramstad Subject: In Defense of Women's Bodybuilding (Re: AI # 75) This is a response to Diana Morgan who wrote the following in AI #75: > I agree with Ingar Knudtsen in AI # 63 that Amazon qualities > have little to do with measuring muscles as in bodybuilding, > though I would argue that they have a lot to do with physical > strength. I think that bodybuilding isn't really as much about > strength as it is about looks. [...] Some Amazon muscles do look > great, but I think they should come from the natural activity of > their possessor, and not from a focus on looks. Such as working > hard or training at a martial art or some other useful activity, > rather than from thinking a lot about one's own appearance. > Bodybuilding on its own is kind of an unhealthy thing, I think, > and not much different on a spiritual level than women who spend > a huge amount of time on makeup, clothes etc. I love muscles > that come naturally, though! Then they are a reflection of a > person's real strength. Bodybuilding can be unhealthy, especially if it becomes a monomaniac obsession and/or is combined with the use of hormonal drugs. I also agree that muscle size and strength is not the same. It is possible to build big muscles without improving much on one's strength. And when one become's big and heavy one becomes slower and less agile, unfortunate in a combat situation. Despite all these negative possibilities (and they are possibilities, not certainties), I profoundly disagree that bodybuilding is about looks in the same superficial way that makeup is. For one thing, it takes a lot of mental discipline, determinism, and will power to be successful in bodybuilding. Secondly, it helps building those very qualities. Bodybuilding is a discipline that builds will power and physical endurance. Makeup and artificial eyelashes don't do that! It can also be a great way to use, express and transform one's energy. So I think for some people bodybuilding can be a way to unite mind and body. The body expresses the mind inside it, unlike superficial makeup. I think that a bodybuilder is an artist, a sculptor in flesh. It can be a very powerful and beautiful symbol of strength. All the above easily applies to women, and can also apply to men, though for men gender stereotypes may get in the way/into the picture, since the stereotypes dictate men to be muscular. Women, on the other hand, must break stereotypes in order to pursue bodybuilding. Specifically, they must break stereotypes not only about physical power, but also about how women are supposed to look. That's why it is unlikely or rare to find women bodybuilders who are bimbos who just want to look pleasing to men -- by deciding to pursue bodybuilding they are already, at least at some level and to some degree, rebels against feminine beauty myths. I remember the first time I saw female bodybuilders, sometime early in college. I was an alienated kid with a lot of offbeat, rebellious and disconnected ideas, ranging from feminism to philosophy to art to science fiction, but I had no clear image of powerful women or Amazons. I believe what I accidentally happened to see was the movie _Pumping Iron II -- The Women_. It was a revelation. It felt like all those pieces fell into place -- YESS, THAT'S IT! Their physiques were natural and strong (this movie was quite old, the hormonal drug use came into prominence later). I believe that building such a physique and displaying it can be a powerful radical and feminist practice. Actually, Leslie Heywood writes about just that in her book _Bodymakers : A Cultural Anatomy of Women's Body Building_. Of course, it doesn't have to be a bodybuilder physique -- it can be any powerful and muscular female physique. Women bodybuilders are just one example of powerfully built women. Western culture has been stripped of images of female power and strength, especially images that combine female power and strength with goodness (moral virtue) and beauty, by patriarchalists. By presenting themselves as strong and physically powerful as well as beautiful and good, these women bodybuilders achieved the same effect that ancient Greek statuary did for Hellenistic culture: they presented a human ideal, but this time in a female form. And once you have an image of something, it's much easier to connect, integrate and express various disconnected ideas that you may have developed independently of each other, which are all still relevant to the subject at hand. But when I told friends about this revelation, I discovered that many of them not only did not share my evaluation, but had difficulty comprehending it. And of course people with patriarchal attitudes were hostile to it. I realized that there were many questions to be asked and hidden assumptions to discover and bring out. But I felt that I could see the pieces of the puzzle and where they would fit together much more clearly, because suddenly I had been provided these concrete images of real, powerful women. Back then there were no movies or TV-series with action heroines. There were a few comics like Modesty Blaise, and I was discovering the feminist heroic fiction tradition, but I'm a visual person; I needed to see real women express these things in a physical way. I think it's just great how women bodybuilders, and athletes in general, not only build power and confidence through building strength and muscles, but that it is also a way of artistic expression and a vision for a way of being the best one can be. And I think bodybuilders tend to be more conscious of these aspects than athletes in general are, precisely because part of their focus is on "looks", or physical appearance. Women bodybuilders tend to think of themselves as artists, and their body as a canvas, while athletes in general think about winning and may not see any particular significance or value-in-itself in how their bodies change and develop. Some athletes even appear to feel embarrassed about deviating from feminine stereotypes about appearance, and may overcompensate by trying to behave or dress in an extremely feminine way. There is a reason why so many patriarchalists are scared, offended and outraged by women's bodybuilding, and fight it claws and nails! If they didn't perceive it as a threat, they wouldn't fight it so hard, condemning, ridiculing and marginalizing it. If women's bodybuilding were just about looks, patriarchalists would embrace it as just one more distraction about looks, one more way to keep women occupied or in their place. As for the functionality and strength of muscles built by bodybuilding, this depends on the training regime. It is possible to lift weights in a way that will both make you strong AND give you big, defined muscles. OK, maybe you will be a little bit slower, but if your primary interest is artistical rather than being a top-notch fighter, and you like the way you look and feel when you're bigger and heavier -- and stronger -- (like it for your own sake, not to please somebody else), then I think this is a valid choice. There's a lot of "cross-over" between bodybuilding and powerlifting, which shows that strength and size/beauty ideals can be combined. Some people even manage to do well at both at the same time. I also like to watch track-and-field athletes in general, and sprinters in particular, -- they are both big and muscular _and_ natural/functional at the same time. And more than a few bodybuilders come from a track-and-field background. Now, you could say that when women bodybuilders participate in a contest and enter the stage they're not judged on how much they can lift, like in a weight lifting competition, but on what they look like. Just like a beauty contest, just with somewhat different criteria of beauty! That's true, and it becomes absolutely schizophrenic when their "femininity" is supposed to be judged as well -- an ephemeral, undefined quality whose only apparent characteristic is that it is opposed to the goals of bodybuilding (size, mass, definition, strength etc.). Of course, male bodybuilders are never judged on their "masculinity", and there is no assumption of a conflict between their "masculinity" and their bodybuilding goals. Marcia Ian writes eloquently about this in her article, _From Abject to Object: Women's Bodybuilding_ . But I think there is a big difference between making judgments about artistic beauty, with reference to an agreed-upon standard with known criteria (such as size, mass, definition, symmetry, proportion, hardness etc. in bodybuilding) on the one hand, versus making undefinable, arbitrary, and totally unpredictable "judgments" about an alleged fidelity to some gender role stereotype! I see nothing wrong with the former. The latter is very bad, however, and I wouldn't want to see women trade obsessing about looking like a bimbo to please men, to obsessing about having the right type of approved muscles to please men. It must be women's own will and decision if, what and how to build, for those feeling so inclined. That's the only way it can help reinforcing the power of will and the will to power... Unfortunately, the imposition of "femininity judgments" and gender role stereotypes constitute a serious problem for women bodybuilders. See for example this article by Sidney Eve Matrix: _Compromising Positions: The Portrayal of Women in Bodybuilding Magazines, , and this article, by Leslie Heywood: _Athletic vs. Pornographic Eroticism: How Muscle Magazines Compromise Female Athletes and Delegitimize the Sport of Bodybuilding in the Public Eye_, . However, I maintain that these problems are primarily caused by the larger (patriarchal) culture that bodybuilding is a part of, rather than by the practice of bodybuilding itself, so I think that Diana Morgan is wrong to criticize the practice rather than those aspects of the culture. Thomas Gramstad thomas@ifi.uio.no ******************************************************************* * Amazons International * * Thomas Gramstad, editor: thomas@ifi.uio.no * * Send postings to: thomas@ifi.uio.no * * * * SUBSCRIBE/UNSUBSCRIBE HERE: * * * * * * The Amazon Connection -- Links to Amazon web sites: * * * ******************************************************************* "A Hard Woman is Good to Find" -- The Valkyries