Amazons International # 67 ************************** Contents: Quote # 1: Breakup Girl & John Gray Quote # 2: Athletic vs. Pornographic Eroticism From the News: Dana Scully/Sheroes article Shannon Morgan: My view from up here Jo Burke: Help with sources? Thomas: Help with sources Jazz Fan: Re: Female Superiority Bernie O'Shea: Various comments on AI # 66 Freeman Ford: Dysfunctional Wrestling? Cat Farrar: Wrestling vs. Sex Date of publication: 29.06.1998 ********************************************************************* TODAY'S QUOTE # 1 Classy Avenger: "I thought you would be interested to know that someone wants revenge on JOHN GRAY." Breakup Girl: "I think both genders have been INSULTED by his book, "Men Are From Mars, Women Are From Venus", but I didn't think anyone had been HURT by it." Classy Avenger: "That's not it. I was contacted by his HOME PLANET! You see... JOHN GRAY IS FROM MARS!" Breakup Girl: "Mars, huh? That would explain why there's no earthly record of where he got his PhD!" ... John G.: "Thank you both for coming. Did Classy Avenger tell you I'm being hunted by people from my home planet, MARS? They are trying to silence MY MESSAGE!" Breakup Girl: "What -- that women should know enough NOT to stand in front of the TV during football?" John G.: "ARGHH! I'm not giving relationship advice! I'm spreading the word about a vast interplanetary conspiracy. In my books and lectures, all I'm trying to say is men are ACTUALLY from the planet Mars, and women are ACTUALLY from the planet Venus." Breakup Girl: "Now, THAT would explain a lot." -- Lynn Harris & Chris Kalb: The Continuing Adventures of Breakup Girl, "John Gray is From Mars!" http://breakupgirl.com/comics/mars01.html TODAY'S QUOTE # 2 I define pornographic eroticism as characteristic of any representation that operates synechdochically--that is, any representation that takes sexuality, which is one part of humanity and human experience, and makes it stand for the whole of that human being and experience, any representation that makes sexuality the primary characteristic of the person represented. I define athletic eroticism as a representation that includes sexuality as one dimension of human experience, as a quality that emerges from the self-possession, autonomy, and strength so evident in the body of a female athlete. Athletic eroticism includes sexuality as one quality among many, not a trait that is present to the exclusion of all else. As long as the bodybuilding industry chooses pornographic over athletic eroticism in their representation of female bodybuilders and fitness competitors, a representation that reduces these athletes to their sexuality, these sports will never be taken seriously as sports. -- Leslie Heywood: Athletic vs. Pornographic Eroticism: How Muscle Magazines Compromise Female Athletes and Delegitimize the Sport of Bodybuilding in the Public Eye http://www.mesomorphosis.com/exclusive/heywood/eroticism01.htm FROM THE NEWS The New York Daily News, June 25 1998, published an interesting article by Lynn Harris, "Dana Scully, Agent of Change: Why the glam gumshoe is a great female role model". The article discusses the character from the X-Files TV series as a female hero. They talk about Wonder Woman, The Bionic Woman, Girl From UNCLE, Charlie's Angels, and more. A book is mentioned: Varla Ventura's "Sheroes: Bold, Brash (and Absolutely Unabashed) Superwomen" (Conari, $16.95). Ventura coined the term 'shero' "as a means of reclaiming and updating the word 'hero,' which first entered the language as the name of a feisty priestess in Greek mythology -- but whose dictionary definition morphed into 'a man of great courage and nobility.'" The article is available online at: http://www.mostnewyork.com/LIFE/062598/femme_fi/femme_fi.htm (Thanks to Chris Sciabarra for the reference to this article.) You may also want to check out the other links at this web page. The author, Lynn Harris, is also the creator of Breakup Girl (see the quote section above) -- do NOT miss the Breakup Girl web site, http://breakupgirl.com/ ! ********************************************************************* Date: Mon, 08 Jun 1998 09:09:39 -0700 From: Shannon Morgan Subject: My view from up here Greetings.... A friend recently forwarded several volumes of comments about Amazons, tall women, strong women, warrior goddesses. I'm inspired to write....I am 6'3", strong, heavy, and gorgeous. I am a single mother of three, work full time, do my own home repairs, and fix my own car. I also have a penchant for red lipstick and garters. I find the idea that tall women be categorized or pigeon-holed into a particular label based on physical attributes short-sighted...I sing in a band, I carried twins, I cry at sappy movies. I lived in Brazil (associated with Amazons if only for the river) and have larger hands than any woman I've ever met. Am I an Amazon? If so, what do I win??? Respectfully submitted, Shannon Morgan ********************************************************************* Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 13:59:29 EDT From: mistressofcirra@juno.com (Jo Burke) Subject: Help with sources? Hello everyone, how's summer coming in? Hope all is well. I need some help with something. I'm in the process of writing a piece that involves Amazons, who else would I be writing with, and I don't know much about rites and rituals and other such things. If anyone has any information for me, or anything else that you think might help me, please let me know. On another note, I agree with Thomas when he speaks against Pablo's writing about gender sterotypes, in AI # 64. I believe that certain attributes attract people to each other, but saying what is 'feminine' and what is 'masculine' is wrong. How are we to know what is 'feminine' or 'masculine'? The dictionary? Please, if you use that excuse you're not as intelligent as I thought all of you were. Most words today have more than one meaning, and meanings may change or be improved. As Cat said in AI # 64, words such as slut, whore and tramp have those negative connotations written next to them. I have taken a word and given it a new meaning. I am an avid Xena: Warrior Princess viewer, and I have taken a liking to the character of Callisto, and the woman who plays her, Hudson Leick. Her last name is pronounced the same as the word like, and usually, when I mean "like" I write 'leick' (a lot of people at HLOFC do as well). Thomas has taken the word Hera and given it a new meaning too. I'm not trying to get on anyone's 'bad side', please take this as information rather than offense. Jo ********************************************************************* From: Thomas Gramstad Subject: Help with sources Jo, I'd recommend that you look up, either in a book shop or on Amazon.com, books by Barbara Walker (e.g., "Women's Encyclopedia of Myth & Secrets", "Amazon: a Novel", "Women's Rituals: a Sourcebook" (not familiar with the latter, but the title suggests what you are looking for)) and Merlin Stone ("When God Was a Woman" and "Ancient Mirrors of Womanhood"). They both got attitude too. These books also contain references to other books that you can look up. Some others are Charlene Spretnak's "Lost Goddesses of Early Greece", Robert E. Bell's encyclopedical "Women of Classical Mythology" and Jennifer Larson's detailed "Greek Heroine Cults". You can do searches on these authors and/or some of the keywords at Amazon.com. You may also want to look into neo-paganism, Wicca and various native/"primitive" practices; Margot Adler's "Drawing Down the Moon: Witches, Druids, Goddess-Worshippers, and Other Pagans in America Today" provides an overview over that domain. Thomas Gramstad thomas@math.uio.no ********************************************************************* Date: Tue, 09 Jun 1998 11:35:36 -0400 From: Jazz Fan Subject: Re: Female Superiority Marilyn wrote in AI # 66: > There can be no doubt that women(females that is) are much > superior to the lowly male species. We bear the continuation of > the species and undergo the pain that goes with it. How can it be > denied? I have frequently reduced some males to squirming jelly > fish just by a show of a breast and they will do anything for me. > I mean that is control and we do control. > Marilyn Of SxMarilyn Women and men are of the same species... but I'm sure Marilyn knows that. IMO, she is correct, however, in that the ability to bear children does lend a kind of superiority to her sex. Even so, ignoring the male role in that process denies the true majesty of it all... the synergy. (Artificial insemination aside, both sexes may become extraneous to the process, at some point in the future) What I do want to explore in a light-hearted fashion, is her assertion that "males can be reduced to squirming jelly fish by a show of a breast". So often, in our focus on Amazons, we<*> overlook what I consider to be a rather potent form of power; that wielded by women of beauty. We overlook it because it is the 'old' power of women, and not the 'new' Amazonian kind. The power of a woman of great beauty is a political embarrassment to those of us who wish to further the notion of the power of the Amazon. It is a throwback to a time when women were perceived as weak, and a reliance upon what could be termed as 'feminine wiles' was their only recourse. <*> When I saw 'we', it's just shorthand for 'me and anyone who agrees'. If you don't agree, then I don't mean to include you in the statement :) While the feminists wish for a day when sex will be factored out entirely, we pro-Amazons hope for the day when a woman's strength and physical accomplishments, rather than the size of her breasts or the curve of her lips, will determine how much control she can exert over her surroundings. The feminists will be disappointed. Their efforts to gain equality for women as full human beings will no doubt continue to bear fruit until all rights and privileges now afforded to males will be theirs as well, but their agenda to factor out sex is doomed. We pro-Amazons will likewise be disappointed. Our attempts to replace the swelling of a breast with the roundness of a bicep, or the trophy won by muscle for the crown awarded for beauty, is misguided and will fail. We are nearly helpless before beauty. We are disarmed. Until now, we could only console ourselves that doors were closed to women as a matter of long held policy, and that if push came to shove, no matter how beautiful, a woman could always be physically brushed aside. What then of a woman for whom feminism unlocks every door? What of a woman who is too strong... too substantial to be physically intimidated? A woman who will take a shot and fire back. What if that woman took those recently acquired assets of access and physical potency, and added them to her traditionally greatest weapon... her sex appeal or beauty? What a wonderful monster! What an insuperable force! Frumpy feminists who abhor the idea would gnash their teeth along side trumped Amazonites who hoped to change the rules and place themselves in an advantageous position in a new world order. (I think at heart, I'm actually one of those. Oh well.) Tomorrow's woman will be more than just another human being... she will be more than merely Amazon... she will not discard, as we might wish her do to preserve our own safety, her ancient advantage... her traditional competitive edge... she will take the feminist access she won, the Amazon strength she built, and combine it with her ancient legacy of beauty, to become the (universally recognized) dominant sex. A scary scenario? I'm not too worried. I don't go anywhere or have anything women aren't already permitted... and I've been an easy target for dark-haired, wide-mouthed girls since I was in second grade, and as far as taking all that and adding muscles... what the heck? I'm already a string around her finger... it will just be a stronger finger. Jazz Fan Visit the land of AMAZONIA MINOR at... http://mail.dandy.net/~bunburry/amazonia.html ********************************************************************* Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 09:59:26 +1000 From: Bernie O'Shea Subject: Various comments on AI # 66 > TODAY'S JOKE > brow and said, "You bastard"! "You didn't tell me the gun was > loaded with blanks! I had to beat the sonomabitch to death with > the chair!" I enjoyed the joke and laughed. And then I tried to decide what was funny about it (Always a bad thing -- to try to work out the mechanics of a joke!) Of course it is a story which depends on gender expectations -- which means, I suppose, that it is a sexist joke. Not quite as funny if all three job applicants are men... But the point is I laughed, I know WHY I laughed, and I think the world will be a poorer place if males and females are expected to think and behave identically in all situations. At present, an Amazon stands out because of her difference in mind/body from most other females. I hope this continues! Frédéric wrote: > I do not claim that every muscular woman must be considered > attractive. It is a question of personal taste. Quite frankly > there are some pictures (I'm saying pictures, not persons) of > muscular women that I consider to be not attractive at all. Of course nobody can judge a person's attractiveness by a photograph. Even disregarding the personality aspect of attractiveness, the photograph may not truly reflect even the physical reality of the person. How often have you seen a photograph of a person, and on meeting them realised how badly the picture failed to represent them? The camera is kind to some, and hostile to others! Then there is the personal bias. For some, a muscular body is a "plus" -- which may compensate for, say, a plain face. For others of more conventional outlook, the muscles will detract from the final score, no matter how otherwise beautiful the woman may be. I would like to think that, in general, the people reading this discussion would be prefering muscle/strength/athletic qualities as a desirable attribute in an "attractive" woman. Josh wrote: > The alternative is to pay $250 an hour to have a lady physically > pummel you for an hour and then leave. I admit to considering this > before, but the truth is, that would be most shallow, because that > is admitting that all you give a damn about is their biceps. And > someone who needs to pay for physical pleasure, even if not sexual, > is still someone who is dysfunctional. I would love to have a > private female sensei to work me out, and then I'd like to go for a > walk in the park and snuggle. Here we have the old problems of men who wish to interact with Amazons. (As opposed to admiring them from afar.) 1. Not enough Amazons in society. 2. Those that do exist may be Amazons of the mind, not of the body. 3. Physical Amazons may not be interested in "physically pummeling" on demand any man who wishes to be pummeled by them! So if you are looking for an Amazon to walk in the park and snuggle with, you first have to find one who is physically and mentally capable of giving you the physical pleasure you want, and then you have to go through the same courting rituals that all couples do. Nobody has found a way to dispense with these in several million years! If you want the physical pleasure without the investment in getting to know each other properly, there are two options. First, find a woman who actually enjoys showing off her physical superiority to casual acquaintances. (Very difficult, and she may not necessarily be found at a martial arts class). Or you enter the world of supply and demand, and pay the $250. This is a commercial transaction, and the lady does not care that you are only interested in her biceps. Whether or not you are dysfunctional is a judgement for you alone. The usual prostitution arguments may apply. Once again the lady has determined her own views on the subject as they apply to her, and as far as your conscience goes -- she does not care! An interesting crop of subjects. Bernie O'Shea E-mail: bjosh@ozemail.com.au PO BOX 302 Eltham Vic. 3095. Australia +61 3 94381625 ********************************************************************* Date: Fri, 19 Jun 1998 09:42:05 -0400 From: faford Subject: Dysfunctional Wrestling? I consulted with Redd and Josephine as well as Cat on the following. Their viewpoint is more informed than mine since both Redd and Josephine make a living in part through wrestling. WHY WE DO WHAT WE DO In AI # 66, Josh in his posting "Respect and Obsession" claims that "...someone who needs to pay for physical pleasure, even if not sexual, is still someone who is dysfunctional". I guess by that standard I am one of the more dysfunctional folks around. I just returned from the gym; the endorphins are still coursing; I got a lot of pleasure from my workout and, yup, I paid. On Memorial day I went skiing at Alpine Meadows near Lake Tahoe in the California Sierras and enjoyed what may have been some of the best corn snow of the year. I knocked down just under twenty thousand feet before noon and yup, I paid, but only thirty-four dollars since this late in the season Alpine discounts. Well, getting a little closer to home, I'm not much on massage. It's probably my own issues. But my wife loves 'em, pays up and sure enough along comes that physical pleasure thing again. Personal trainers are becoming the rage here in the Silicon Valley. After all, when you're thirty and have made your first fortune what not amble down to the old gym and well, pay that trainer to hone those wealthy muscles to some new degree of tone. Might even prove to be that elusive lover magnet... Still not close enough to home? OK, what about wrestling, and how about wrestling with women and paying for same? Wow, sounds pretty sexy and even erotic doesn't it? Well, Redd put it this way in AI # 65: > I say, hey -- it's OK. Wrestling is sexual. Isn't that great? > I mean, to be one to one; face to face; someone grabbing you, > feeling the breath, sweat and passion of another body so close to > your own -- challenging you and maybe overpowering them...and > maybe not. Ultimately, you cling to them, bond with them in a > way that is not co-dependent, but in a way that is independent, > gratifying, intensely passionate. It becomes an intimate glimpse > into one another's soul. Ecstatic. It's almost orgasmic to me! > > The 'high' is still with me, even after I roll off of this sweaty > opponent. Being conscious of sex when you do what you love is > empowering. To me, this is honoring and respecting the passion. > When can male to female wrestling find its rightful place in a > society so plagued by sexual confusion and shame. It may take > awhile. On the other hand, for me the intensity of submission wrestling with any woman while sexually driven really isn't erotic in the heat of battle. It can't be since even the slightest distraction gives Redd the advantage and vice versa. I think Maslow covered all this in his formulation of the Hierarchy of Needs. (I presume that Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs is a well known reference. If anyone needs more info, he or she can contact my wife who has a Ph.D., is a therapist and teaches this stuff!) But why speculate? Again, here's Redd: > Some guys like to be treated as subordinate, slightly humiliated, > teased or physically dominated by a strong woman. A lot of that > is probably sexual energy, though I've never been touched by a > hard-on during the competitive match. How could he get one when > he is fighting for his life?! Some enjoy the masochistic > adventure of being defeated by an Amazon. Some guys want to be > taught. But almost all, like grapes, just wanna be squished. Redd wrestles professionally; she is an outstanding wrestler and she charges by the hour. And speaking of hours, have you ever truly wrestled hard for a full hour? Whew! Well, I'm a confirmed endorphin junkie well beyond the help of any twelve step program. I also like to work out, sweat to the point of sore muscles, have fun and learn a new sport. So let me share my secret with you. Redd is a real bargain but please don't let it get back to her since we really have to all do our part in keeping inflation under control (so to speak). Oh yeah, then there's that ugly guilt thing that suggests perversely that if I'm paying for sexual pleasure that somehow it's wrong. But this is a slippery slope since most wouldn't wince at a few bare breasts in that last action movie. And what of the more pornographic or at lease X-rated movies? Maybe we can lay our guilt trip on Calvin; and certainly our Puritan heritage in the US contributes to the guilt. But why speculate? Let's hear from another competitive wrestler, Josephine (msj@2extreme.net), one of the very few women who can more than hold her own with Redd. Josephine comments: I've always thought that my profession (as both wrestler and dominatrix) is much more akin to massage than to prostitution. I enjoy myself, the client gets what he wants, we have a meaningful, intimate exchange, and everyone is happy. I am providing a service. I think the issue that bothers people is more about whether we service-providers are just in it for the money. The person paying may be insecure about the experience and was it "real" or reciprocal. Did she enjoy herself? Does she like me? Is she counting the minutes until our time is up? Is she faking? Am I getting ripped off? If she REALLY enjoyed doing this, she wouldn't charge me, right? You don't suppose that in worrying about the money and reciprocity thing that a bit of male insecurity could be entering into the equation, do you? And then there is that small chance that some tiny minority out there just can't gain access to the physical/sexual stuff without paying for it. Josephine again: One other thing: some men can't get what they want without paying for it. Some men are married, some are very unlucky with women, and some just want to have a no-strings-attached experience. This does not necessarily precipitate some kind of psychological dysfunction. Life is much more complicated than that and it's too easy to pass judgement on people when we don't know their situation. Well, I'd write more but I'm heading down to the old batting cage over at Malibu Might try one of those new quarter scale formula cars as well, but, boy, is this stuff getting expensive... Freeman Ford faford@compuserve.com ********************************************************************* Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 12:37:29 -0700 From: Cat Farrar Subject: Wrestling vs. Sex I just got off the phone with a friend, who is a professional wrestler. She sounded tired and down. I asked her what was wrong and she said all these wrestling calls are starting to wear her down. 99% of the guys who call want to know if they can jack off afterwards, grab her ass etc.. She just wants to wrestle and it's discouraging that these men have this kind of focus. Actually, it's that soooo many of them have this focus. It's at moments like this that I feel tremendous anger -- she is a female athlete, wanting to combine her strength and skill to make a living and enjoy her sport and these guys primarily want to use her for ejaculation. Keeping in mind that I acknowledge that an erotic/sexual component can be a legitimate part of a physical activity, but neither she nor I appreciate the monomaniac focus of these guys. That kind of relationship feels like prostitution -- money for sex. Cat Farrar cat@cfmc.com "Little by little, we change the world we live in. Even the grand, earth-shaking events of history have their origins in individual thought." (Eknath Easwaran, quoted in Wendy Palmer(1994): "The Intuitive Body: Aikido as a Clairsentient Practice", North Atlantic Books) ***************************************************************** * Amazons International * * Thomas Gramstad, editor: thomas@math.uio.no * * Administravia/Listserver: amazons-request@ifi.uio.no * * Submissions: amazons@math.uio.no * * http://www.math.uio.no/~thomas/lists/amazons.html * * * * The Amazon Connection -- Links to Amazon web sites: * * http://www.math.uio.no/~thomas/lists/amazon-links.html * ***************************************************************** "A Hard Woman is Good to Find" -- The Valkyries