Amazons International # 66 ************************** Contents: TODAY'S QUOTES TODAY'S JOKE Sandy Steinbok: Re: Tributes to Gabriela Sabatini Frédéric D'Astous: Muscularity & Unattractiveness Marilyn: Female Superiority Josh: Respect vs. Obsession Date of publication: 07.06.1998 ********************************************************************* TODAY'S QUOTES "She looked up into his eyes" is more than a breathless phrase from a Gothic novel; it is an expression of the heterosexual relationship as we expect to find it. When a woman stands taller than a man she has broken a cardinal feminine rule, ... She has dealt a blow to his masculine image, undermined his footing as aggressor-protector. -- Susan Brownmiller: _Femininity_, Fawcett Books 1994, p. 29. ISBN: 0449901424 (Thanks to Cat Farrar for providing this quote.) WHY I LIFT MEN: Because I do not lift women! Also, because it allows me to strength train with heavy weight on my back that is much more flexible than a weighted Barbell and allows me to run with the weight. I also use a weighted sandbag that I carry om my back for the same purpose. -- Cynthia L. Morrison http://members.aol.com/smichae999/man.html Strongwoman and powerlifter Cynthia L. Morrison also enjoys alligator wrestling: http://members.aol.com/bicepsfan1/gator.html TODAY'S JOKE A few months ago there was an opening with the CIA for an assassin. These highly classified positions are hard to fill, and there is a lot of background checks involved before one can even be considered for the position. After sending some applicants through the background checks, training and testing, the CIA had narrowed the possible choices down to two men and one woman for the one position that was available. The day came for the final test to see which of the three applicants would get the extremely secretive job. The CIA agent administrating the test took one of the men through a large metal door and handed him a gun. "We must know that you will follow instructions no matter what the circumstances", the agent explained. "Inside the room, you will find your wife sitting in a chair. Take this gun and kill her." The applicant got a shocked look on his face and said to the agent, "You can't be serious! I could never shoot my own wife!" "Well", says the agent, "You're definitely not the right man for this job." So the agent brought the second man to the same door and handed him a gun. "We must know that you will follow instructions no matter what the circumstances", he explained. "Inside you will find your wife sitting in a chair. Take this gun and kill her." The second applicant looked a bit shocked, but nevertheless took the gun and went into the room. All was quiet for about five minutes, then the door opened. The man came out of the room with tears in his eyes. "I tried to shoot her, I just couldn't pull the trigger and shoot my wife. I guess I'm not the right man for the job." "No", the CIA agent replied, "You don't have what it takes. Take your wife and go home." Now the CIA agent was ready to test the woman. He lead her to the door of the room and handed her the gun. "We must be sure that you will follow instructions no matter what the circumstances. Inside you will find your husband sitting in a chair. Take this gun and kill him." The woman took the gun, opened the door and walked into the room. Once the door closed, the CIA agent heard the gun start firing. One shot after another. Then all hell broke loose in the room. He heard screaming, crashing, and banging on the walls. This went on for several minutes, then all was quiet. The door opened slowly, and there stood the woman. She wiped the sweat from her brow and said, "You bastard"! "You didn't tell me the gun was loaded with blanks! I had to beat the sonomabitch to death with the chair!" ********************************************************************* Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 00:05:19 EDT From: LidlAmazon Subject: Re: Tributes to Gabriela Sabatini Regarding whether Amazons are sexually attractive, and Pablo's comments on Gabriela Sabatini in AI # 64, my response is obvious. Women find men attractive because of what they can do, who they are, how they think, how they feel. But to a sexist man, a woman, whether weak or strong, black or white, fat or thin, tall or short, petite or Amazonian, is an object, and women are therefore interchangeable. One can thus say that a woman loses the quality of attractiveness *to the degree* that she is subject. She is a fine woman, a good woman, a great personality, a genius, a great writer, painter, thinker, poet, journalist, doctor, athlete...maybe. But then she is NOT an attractive woman -- accomplishments of any sort being entirely unrelated to her status as object, which is the criterion by which her attractiveness is judged. This is the essence of sexism. Her object status is the sole criterion of sexual attraction for these men. Hello? Is anybody really home in the male psyche? Sandy Steinbok ********************************************************************* Date: 2 Jun 98 12:52:23 -0400 From: Frédéric D'Astous Subject: Muscular women, attractiveness and unattractiveness (Re: Tributes to Gabriela Sabatini) I subscribed to AI some months ago (since AI # 61). My field of interest is how social models guide people's perceptions and actions like gender and roles in western societies. Those are the kind of interests that lead me to study sociology at the university. I completed my master's degree. I'm not into bodybuilding, but I sometimes like to train a little with weights at home for my personal pleasure. I live with my wife. She's not into bodybuilding and I love her. We have a 100 % friendly black dog. That'll give you an idea of who I am! Note: since I'm not a native English speaker please forgive any glitches in my writing. Now my first contribution. I couldn't resist writing after I read the comment of Pablo M. Gonzales in AI # 64. He said: > I read Thomas Gramstad's comments in AI # 62 where he speaks about > Gabriela Sabatini, and as an Argentinian, I would like to say that > she might be an Amazon for her muscularity and shoulders and her > overall look, but my opinion is that she is not attractive as a > woman. I've personally seen her playing in Buenos Aires, I've > heard her in lots of interviews (remember that I speak Spanish), > and she is not feminine at all. She may be attractive as a > bodyguard, but not as a woman. That comment left me thinking. Not only because of itself but also for what it represents. I cannot agree with it. I do not know Gabriela Sabatini, nor have I followed her career. So I will not argue about who and how she is. Also, I do not know how much precision Mr. Gonzales put into his choice of words to express his opinion. I prefer to focus on the argument itself saying: "she is not attractive as a woman". I understand that this opinion is based "on her muscularity and shoulders and her overall look". That is the part that makes me think. I think our societies are slowly evoving toward more equal values and models. Because of that, it is possible for someone to build his (or her) own identity by engaging in whatever fields he (she) thinks is the best. Even if it is not a traditional field. That includes, obviously, the possibility for a woman to build her "muscular side". I think muscle development is a way someone can choose to enhance the masculine of feminine aspect of the body. It should be a question of feeling better with oneself. After looking at pictures of muscular women (mostly on the Internet) I think many of them can be very attractive. Also, most of them must have built a very good sense of discipline to achieve their muscular development. There is a mental development along with the physical achievement. It can be described as the best of both worlds. So, in my opinion the real problem with Mr. Gonzalez' argument is: How can a woman who developed herself in such a complete manner NOT be attractive as a woman! (Call it "Amazonian spirit" if you like, but that is another discussion.) I think the starting point of a problem like this is mainly social. Sometimes we get used to the ways things are presented to us. And in our societies roles and gender are strongly linked. I remember a book about religious movements which said: "it is surprisingly easy to put ideology into people". And gender stereotypes are an example of ideology (somewhat simplistic ideology). While I was studying at the university, some years ago, I read some sociobiologist paper which said that that kind of reactions are caused by an instinct of self-protection linked to the survival of the group that you belong to. Because of that, anything that is different is a threat to the rules of the group, and consequently to your own security. In our western societies, the roles are often distributed by gender. Many belonging groups are mainly male or female, to the point of sometimes excluding the other sex. Look at the job market! A woman who's into bodybuilding and stuff like that, is a kind of threat to the rules of the average male belonging groups. And so it is not accepted because it is perceived as a threat to masculinity. Consequently, a man who abide by the values of such a group is threatened in how he is living his manhood. Surprisingly, this also applies to the members of the average women belonging group who will think the muscular female might destroy the very nature of their group and thereby destroy their femininity. They might feel inferior if this new way of being a woman were to win the majority. Just like their male masculine counterpart. For example, the people who were most opposed to the vote of women were women! I do not believe a man should feel threatened in his masculinity by a muscular woman. It should neither be a question of superiority nor inferiority. It should not even be a question of opposites. Everyone should be more confortable being together with a more complete person! It is an occasion to go forward with yourself! There are many ways women and men can reach achievement as persons. And it is achievement that makes a better person, whatever field you are in (arts, muscles, or whatever). I do not claim that every muscular woman must be considered attractive. It is a question of personal taste. Quite frankly there are some pictures (I'm saying pictures, not persons) of muscular women that I consider to be not attractive at all. But others are obviously very attractive to me. At this point, a distinction must be made. For those I consider to be not attractive, I prefer to NOT say that they are unattractive as women. They are simply unattractive to me for personal reasons such as my own opinions and preferences about esthetics. It is only logical for someone to feel affinity with some looks and styles and not with others. You cannot be attracted to everyone! And there are many ways a muscular women can present herself. So I believe it is utterly unfair to say that a muscular women who might be unattractive for someone, is unattractive as a woman. There is a big difference between not liking the style of a person and denying the femininity of a person. (Besides, what is the definition of femininity or masculinity? -- but that is another topic.) Let's say that it is also a question of logic. If you believe in gender equality, it is a basic general rule that what is good for men is good for women, and vice versa. And, if it is good for a man to engage himself into bodybuilding to develop his person, there is no reason why a woman can't do the same. I think this is all I had to say. Frédéric dasto@globetrotter.qc.ca ********************************************************************* Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 17:42:08 EDT From: MWilson872 Subject: Female Superiority There can be no doubt that women(females that is) are much superior to the lowly male species. We bear the continuation of the species and undergo the pain that goes with it. How can it be denied? I have frequently reduced some males to squirming jelly fish just by a show of a breast and they will do anything for me. I mean that is control and we do control. Marilyn Of SxMarilyn ********************************************************************* Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 02:55:08 EDT From: Rebelj2 Subject: Respect vs. Obsession Hello, As a man who is attracted to both female bodybuilders and martial artists, I have struggled with the difference between respect and obsession. I mean, a regular sized women of average athletic ability has always been able to date a man who could bench press 350lbs. or who was a second-degree black belt. To say that the roles can't be switched is ridiculous. However, I would feel like I would be disrespectful if I went to study a martial art right now, because I know my primary focus would be on the females in the class. That would seem like I am studying an art that many take very seriously because of my own physical attraction, which seems shallow and rude. The alternative is to pay $250 an hour to have a lady physically pummel you for an hour and then leave. I admit to considering this before, but the truth is, that would be most shallow, because that is admitting that all you give a damn about is their biceps. And someone who needs to pay for physical pleasure, even if not sexual, is still someone who is dysfunctional. I would love to have a private female sensei to work me out, and then I'd like to go for a walk in the park and snuggle. As stereotypes are blown away, I think the world will be more open for guys who would like to find a woman who is physically superior but would also like to raise a child and go to church with her. However, I still have been called a freak twice by ladies for telling them that I admire their physical accomplishments. How many people can relate to the good guy who wants to build a relationship that is true but still wouldn't mind being choked out, revived and held by a stunning judoka? I look forward to responses. Josh rebelj2@aol.com ***************************************************************** * Amazons International * * Thomas Gramstad, editor: thomas@math.uio.no * * Administravia/Listserver: amazons-request@ifi.uio.no * * Submissions: amazons@math.uio.no * * http://www.math.uio.no/~thomas/lists/amazons.html * * * * The Amazon Connection -- Links to Amazon web sites: * * http://www.math.uio.no/~thomas/lists/amazon-links.html * ***************************************************************** "A Hard Woman is Good to Find" -- The Valkyries