Amazons International # 63 ************************** Contents: ON THE LIGHT SIDE: The Princess and the Frog Calli: Re: Amazon confusion Zon (Amy Mundhenk): Re: Amazon confusion Ingar Knudtsen: Who are the Amazons? Bernie O'Shea: Bio and thoughts Date of publication: 11.04.98 ********************************************************************* From: Thomas Gramstad Subject: ON THE LIGHT SIDE: The Princess and the Frog [Thanks to Cat Farrar for forwarding this story. Slightly rewritten for AI.] Once upon a time, a beautiful, independent, self-assured Amazon warrior princess happened upon a frog in a pond. The frog said to the princess, "I was once a handsome prince until an evil Amazon priestess witch put a spell on me. One kiss from you and I will turn back into a prince and then we can marry, move into the castle with my mom and you can prepare my meals, clean my clothes, serve my needs, bear my children and forever feel happy doing so." That night, the princess had frog legs for dinner. ********************************************************************* Date: Fri, 03 Apr 1998 14:03:12 EST From: Calli H Friedman Subject: Re: Amazon confusion Hi everyone, I would just like to say that my first issue of AI was very informative. Of course, like many people, I agreed and disagreed with some things, but for the most part I thoroughly enjoyed it. It is my belief that all women are inherently Amazons, and it just takes one small event to bring it to the surface. I would like to add, Thomas, that if you want to use Hera with a capitalized 'H', that's fine. Don't let people's confusion get in the way with something you have already decided upon. It's a preference like all others. Jo Burke ********************************************************************* Date: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 14:40:15 -0500 (EST) From: Amy L Mundhenk Subject: Re: Amazon confusion I find the whole question of height and Amazonism (is that a word?) to be entertaining. In fact, I've been meditating on this for a couple of weeks now. You see, due to a car accident a couple of years ago in which I broke my back, I'm shrinking. Slowly, to be sure, but I've lost a good inch and a half in the last five years as the disks slowly degenerate and the bones break down. So I'm wondering, what is the exact height requirement? And should I measure myself each morning, or perhaps once a week, to ensure that I am still, really and truly, an Amazon? When I drop under 5'9", (which will likely happen in about another 2 years) do I have to turn in my "AMYZON" licence plates and my leather bikini? If I shrink below the required height for an Amazon, do I just turn into a pushy activist dwarf? Is there some kind of official committee that I have to report to if I finally get the surgery I need, and regain my original height? But if the definition of Amazon is somewhere else...well. Maybe I should get a letter of Amazonism Recommendation from some friends, my lover, or perhaps a clergyman or a former employer? "Ms. Mundhenk adequately displays the qualities of an Amazon; that is....(fill in the requirements here)". Or perhaps having someone in a bar say something to the effect of "Oh wow...she lookes like she'd twist me up like a pretzel...ohhhhhhhh" would be enough recommendation? Maybe three people? Six? Somehow I doubt it. I think I'll take the fact that everyone simply calls me "Zon" as proof. Or perhaps the fact that I am repeatedly told "Wow, that was gutsy of you, I'd never have had the nerve". Or even the subtle grin and shake of the head that my friends give when someone is fool enough to hand me (pick one or more) a firearm, a sword, or a microphone. Love and Other Indoor Sports, AmyZon "Happiness? A good cigar, a good meal, and a good woman...or a bad woman. It depends on how much happiness you can handle." -Mark Twain --------------------------------------------------------------------- http://www.don'tclickthisyoumoron.com ********************************************************************* From: Ingar Knudtsen Subject: Who are the Amazons? (Re: Amazon confusion) Problems of definition frequently pop up in Amazons International. Usually raised by men, or so it seems to me. When my interest for Amazons started to grow in the early 1980s, the Amazons as a society fascinated me the most. Particularly the question whether such a society had ever existed, and whether it is possible to determine the time and place that such a society existed. To my eyes, the accumulated evidence is now so strongly in favor of the existence of one, or rather several such societies, with varying degrees of female political, military and religious domination, that I, without hesitation, will answer the question whether I "believe in the Amazons" with a decided YES. I also believe that the basis of the Amazon society was religion. Worship of one, or rather several goddesses, which when added up may be referred to as The Goddess. The existence of female warriors may therefore be rooted in the society's choice of religion, and the defense of this religion. In my opinion, the definition of an Amazon must be a woman who was a member of a certain society, in which the warrior caste consisted of women. But it would be wrong to define only the warriors as Amazons. We may call them Amazon warriors if we like, but they were no more Amazons than the priestesses of the society, or women of any other class. In our individualized and internationalized age, in which it for all practical purposes is THE MOVEMENT (if we want to call it that) which replaces the old Amazon society, my claim is that being an Amazon is determined by CHOICE, not by muscles, not by orientation, not by accidental elements like, e.g., being genetically condemned or blessed with having a bigger or smaller body than the average of one's social group or family group. Since the Amazons were a horse-riding people (it is claimed that they invented the stirrup), one might, on the basis of a single isolated criterion (for those who are so inclined), start looking for Amazons exclusively among girls who are interested in horses! My claim then, is that a modern Amazon is a woman who exists in a context which may be called "Amazonian", and of course her beliefs and attitudes are more important than her appearance! Also, it includes or may include any woman who is a part of that which we, generalizing a little, may refer to as THE MOVEMENT. We may very well say that strength is a criterion too, but the concept of strength is so complex and elusive that defining it as, e.g., the ability to lift weights, is ridiculous. The experience from different revolutions and from WWII has demonstrated that women, and especially during revolutions like the one in Spain in 1936, stand on the barricades at the first opportunity. Heras or Amazons or both? The way the definitions in AI seem to be headed will, I believe, lead to something bizarre. One will probably end up defining those as Amazons who would have great difficulties adjusting to the old Amazon society... if the HERAS don't qualify as Amazons, then I think the definitions have reached a dead end. We men ought to know even better than women that muscular strength in itself doesn't necessarily imply anything else than perhaps being able to get a job in a furniture removal company. Unless the muscles get so much in the way that one breaks the furniture instead of moving it. Humankind has become (for a little good and much bad) the ruler of the world not because of muscular strength, but because of brainpower and the ability to cooperate. If we men, of all people, begin to press female ideals towards muscular strength only, then we might easily be suspected of wanting toiling, easy-to-control manual workers, controlled by us computer-literate small men. Women who can fight for us, lift pianos (if and when we wish something like that), play with us in bed, etc. etc., while we can devote ourselves to deeper or higher spiritual and political activities like analyzing the purpose and meaning of the Amazons... Within the Catholic church they once discussed gravely and ardently how many angels could stand or sit on the point of a needle. Any discussion of definitions that aims for some kind of purism, will unavoidably end up counting angels. This many inches of bicep and you are in, a tenth of an inch too little and you're out. It's much more interesting to discuss whether we men have any place in an Amazon movement at all. The answer must be yes. Again rooted in the basis of "Amazonism" as something social, a cultural or societal phenomenon. An Amazon society without men is actually quite difficult to imagine, even though we can imagine parts or branches of this society being devoid of men, like the Lesbian Amazon Association etc. Can men be Amazons? At first glance, the question seems ludicrous. But we know that many societies have existed in which gender identity has been chosen by the individual. At the same time I fear that this tolerant point of view was the very thing that undermined the old Amazon society. The pressure from male-dominated neighbor cultures may have lead men in the Amazon society to choose more and more of the typical female roles in their society: warriors, priestesses, political positions -- even though the prize such a "modern" man had to pay sometimes may have seemed high -- he had to become a woman! That is, he had to allow himself to be castrated. Then at some point there were more men than women in the professions of power in the Amazon society, and in practice that meant the extinction of this society. There is an interesting parallel to this process today: women in male professions. Some of the women in the front of this process, who have achieved high positions, have been accused of "becoming masculine" or "making themselves into men". If this process is seen as a historical parallel to the Amazon society, this claim is utterly wrong. It's not about becoming men, it is about TAKING BACK positions, using some of the very same means that men once used against women! Now, I'm actually in favor of a completely egalitarian society, in which every individual themself choose their place. But if men are to choose a place in the Amazon movement, it must be with a full recognition of the fact that Amazonism is feminism, and not just another meat market (or should I have said muscle market?) for men with particular cravings or adult small boys who miss mommy's spanking hand. An Amazon is a woman who chooses to see herself as an Amazon, completely independent of whatever edicts or definitions the authorities of the central committee of any Amazon political party might come up with. No more bullshit. An Amazon is an Amazon is an Amazon. [Translated by Thomas Gramstad] Editor's note: Ingar Knudtsen is a Norwegian author, primarily of science fiction and fantasy, who has published 26 books, including a fantasy trilogy about an ancient Amazon society. A feminist and anarchist, most of his books feature strong female protagonists. His web page is at: http://home.sol.no/~oteige/forfatter/IngarKnudtsen.html ********************************************************************* Date: Mon, 06 Apr 1998 15:56:36 +1000 From: Bernie O'Shea Subject: Bio and thoughts Greetings, I have just received and read AI # 62, and it set me to starting a long delayed bio, which means of course trying to think through and sort out my history and ideas about Amazons. This is not a simple and logical process, not only because the very definition of Amazon is disputed (even by intelligent experts, as we have amongst us on this list) but the appreciation of female strength is a mixture of personal, sexual, and academic threads. I am a 50 year old man. Married for 25 years to the same very compatible lady (non-Amazon). Three children now adult and out in the world. Amazons for me are women of above average physical strength, physique, or sporting ability. The mental strength aspect of Amazonhood as discussed here I can recognise but not as a primary qualification. I cannot remember now where the first interest and attraction to Amazons occurred. It was not a blinding flash or a particular girl, but I have memories of myself as a shy teenager, watching large athletic pre-pubescent girls on my school bus, and thinking what a shame they will soon develop breasts and become all soft and feminine. Also watching the teenage girl next door hang out the washing and observing the muscular play in her shoulders. So it has been with me a long time folks! Mainly sexual in nature; it was only later that I began to wonder if other people thought the same way, and I began to integrate my love of muscular females into "normal" social patterns, although it is only in perhaps the last 10 years that I have been comfortable discussing my preferences with acquaintances or strangers. As a young man I never promised myself I would make muscles a prime requisite for a partner, and the love of my life turned out to be a distinctly non-athletic and non-aggressive person, who has her skills in the arts (singing), and a very pleasant and loving personality. In the early 70s, when we were getting to know each other, I had discovered the Women's Physique Club, and the regular newsletters produced by Paula Mollerup and Tina Woodley, featuring what were, for me, fascinating women with for that time extreme muscular development. (Through that publication, I also first became aware of the work of Orrin J. Heller whose photos of circus performers were featured and discussed). I showed my new love some copies of the WPC letter, and guess what? She thought the women were grotesque and repulsive! (And I guess that made me a bit suspect as well!!) So I learned that appreciation for visible muscle was something we did NOT share, but the important thing as it turned out, was that my future wife knew from the start about my thinking on the subject, and she was not vulnerable to surprise at a later stage. My Amazon outlets in those days tended to be mainly wrestling magazines. I guess I associated this form of combat with strength and skill, and I still do. Certain images (and descriptions) from those magazines are still in my subconscious to this day. I found a couple of 8mm film producers of female wrestling, and found great excitement in the few mixed matches they presented. But I still tried to find Amazons in other sports and ways of life. Farm girls, circus performers (trying to follow Mr. Heller without much success!), and eventually, in the 70s, I found powerlifting for women. We had a family friend who was a local star and organiser of this fledgling sport, and I reveled in mixing socially with the small group of competitors that existed. I photographed the events, took part in fund-raising activities, and generally had a ball. Meanwhile, Bill Jentz had started his WASP newsletter with wrestlers and natural physiques, and I was an early subscriber. From there, I naturally went along with the tide of women's bodybuilding -- reading about the stars from America, and patronising the lesser competitions being held locally. These days I still keep in touch with the bodybuilding scene, and I am known locally as a keen photographer of contests and women's physique. But I am still fascinated more by what the muscles are capable of doing than their shape, so I have been known to issue armwrestling challenges to check if strength corresponds with size! (It doesn't always, and the whole area has endless intrigue and interest for someone like me). So you can see, for 35 years or so, I have had this long running love of athletic females, or at least physically competent and confident females, and I believe it won't leave me until I shuffle off. I am grateful for this outlet, and others on the Internet, for showing me that although I am in a minority, I am by no means alone. Thank you all for your companionship. Bernie O'Shea. Email: bjosh@ozemail.com.au Snail: PO Box 302, Eltham 3095. Vic. Australia Phone: +61 3 9438 1625 ***************************************************************** * Amazons International * * Thomas Gramstad, editor: thomas@math.uio.no * * Administravia/Listserver: amazons-request@ifi.uio.no * * Submissions: amazons@math.uio.no * * http://www.math.uio.no/~thomas/lists/amazons.html * * * * The Amazon Connection -- Links to Amazon web sites: * * http://www.math.uio.no/~thomas/lists/amazon-links.html * ***************************************************************** "A Hard Woman is Good to Find" -- The Valkyries