Amazons International # 60 ************************** Contents: Zon (Amy Mundhenk): My AMYZON license plate Anne Marie Talbott: AI # 58 erratum Max Earnest: Cat Farrar's letter in AI # 59 Dave G.: Re: Manhood & Amazons Cat Farrar: AI # 11 -- what is an Amazon? Thomas: Re: AI # 11 -- what is an Amazon? The 100 Heroines Project Date of publication: 09.11.97 ********************************************************************* Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 19:48:28 -0500 (EST) From: Mundhenk Amy L Subject: My AMYZON license plate I just returned from the DMV, having applied for my long awaited "AMYZON" license plate. Guess what....it will have to be AMYZON 1 because...get this...another person in the state of Ohio has the license plate "AMYZON". All the DMV would tell me is that the person did not have the given name "Amy". I'm kind of hoping that maybe the other AMYZON might be a subsciber to AI! In any case, I'm hoping to see the other AMYZON on the road someday, this is a person I'd like to take to lunch. :) At any rate, if you happen to see a large, gold land yacht with a large, blonde woman in it with the license plate "AMYZON 1", honk and wave... Hugs, Zon Due to recent cutbacks, the light at the end of the tunnel will be out until further notice. ********************************************************************* Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 22:48:09 -0600 From: "Anne Marie Talbott, M.A." Subject: AI # 58 erratum [A thousand apologies for this editorial glitch, which resulted in the mistaken attribution of Anne Marie Talbott's contribution to AI # 58, quoted below, to Fido -- Ed.] Hi, Thomas! I enjoyed the list, but unfortunately, somehow my name and/or address became switched with someone else's, since this is my entry, but not who I am: > From: FIDO (ERRATUM!) Should have been: ==> From: Anne Marie Talbott > Here's my list... > > Character: Author: > > Paksenarrion Dorthansdotter Elizabeth Moon > Sera Ofelia **** Elizabeth Moon > Shkai'ra Mek Kermak's-Kin S.M. Stirling/S. Meier > Yolande Ingolfsson/Gwendolyn Ingolfsson S.M. Stirling > Magda Lorne Marion Z. Bradley > > Yeah, I know, I know, I cheated and stuck two on one line. As > ruthless as they may be, and by George, those two Ingolfssons ARE, > they are still strong women characters; heroes in their own stories. > > The **** indicates an anomaly: an older woman as hero in a science > fiction story. If you haven't read Remnant Population, run, don't > walk to the nearest bookstore and please buy a copy. It's quite > interesting, and a refreshing change from the "young and incredibly > vivacious" science fiction woman. > > Magda Lorne was a fairly cool character, too: Terran on Darkover. > Thendara House was a fun read. > > I always think it is interesting to think about throwing a dinner > party for various characters. I am not sure I'd want all of these > gals sitting down at my dinner table at once, and I am not too sure > Shkai'ra would be tame enough to deal with modern dining methods, > but it would be fun. The interactions would be fantastic to observe! Keep up the Amazonian work! I enjoyed reading everyone's opinions, since it gave me a lot of titles and authors to look up in the library or in the bookstore. :) Anne Marie ********************************************************************* Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 11:59:58 EST From: MaxEarnest Subject: Re: Cat Farrar's letter in AI # 59 > I did very well in high school, scoring A's and B's in math, > english, history and physiology, but flunked out in my one > non-academic course: The Art of Being Feminine. The class was > designated pass/fail. Whether you passed of failed was determined > by one thing -- could you get AND keep a boyfriend? I failed this > class because I couldn't get a boyfriend, and had I gotten one, I > never would have been able to keep him. I wouldn't curl my hair > or wear layers of make-up; I liked to walk fast and open my own > doors; I looked someone right in their eyes when they spoke to me, > and laughed loud and hard at things I found funny. I wanted a > career and had no plans to get married and raise a family. > And...I failed miserably at feigning passivity and submission in > bed. And, there was more... > I wouldn't wear dresses, high heels or pastel colors. Instead, I > wore pants, flat shoes and I filled my closet with black, red and > purple. I had opinions, expressed them, and loved to argue a point > to the ground. I spoke my mind and refused to engage in mindless > gossip. When did you grow up, the 40s? The 50s? I can't imagine things were that bad then, and in terms of the contemporary high school social scene, this is so grotesquely overstated, I can't let it go without comment. The notion that it's essential to be some sort of latter-day geisha doll to be popular with boys is patently absurd. The chief requirement to be popular with boys is to be goodlooking. Always was, always will be. A great personality helps, but if you're a dog, no amount of makeup or passivity will make you a raging social success. And if you're a serious fox, you could wear a garbage bag and a faceful of soot and guys will still line up to date you. I'd like to suggest it isn't often the boys who demand makeup and fussed-over hair and girlie clothes, it's the *girls themselves*, indoctrinated by advertising, their mothers, older sisters and friends. They're victims of a culture geared to make them buy a million things they don't need and would be better off without. As for the necessity of being passive and submissive in bed, not many guys are seeking this either, and I doubt they ever were. The radical gender dividing line remains muscle. Everything short of that: forthright personality, "masculine" attire, no makeup, natural hair etc., are fairly commonplace and have been since the 60s. They're a turnoff to only a very small minority of men, and a turnon to a larger percentage of men, I'm sure. --Max Earnest ********************************************************************* Date: Sat, 1 Nov 1997 11:13:41 -0500 (EST) From: Comnavbkyd@aol.com Subject: Re: Manhood & Amazons Hi All, I would like to start by saying that I am new to newsletter and fairly new to doing deep research on myself as concerns my lifelong interest in Amazons and Amazon types, in real life and as a favorite reading material. I have also maintained a lifelong interest in the male version, i.e., Tarzan, Conan, along those general lines, but it is my as yet not fully understood fascination with Amazons that is a strong force within me. The Editor, with the article: "Manhood and Amazons" really told the story of my inner most lifelong emotions. In the last few years I believe I have grown to manhood in conquering my needs to be superior to the "non-men" he refers to. The definition of manhood that I strive to live up to today is to not have or need those feelings of superiority and to overcome my feelings of inferiority. I have enjoyed a large amount of success by developing spiritual principles although I will be the first to admit that I will never be perfect in this or any other area. I believe the goal of manhood is to continue the battle, to surrender is to return to the black morass, as described by the editor, that I lived in far too long! One of the groups of people I have spent a lot of time feeling superior to is artists. Until I discovered Boris Vallejo (http://204.140.242.11/fem mes/VALLEJO/boris_gallery.shtml -- a web page of his best art) I am absolutely fascinated by this man's art!!! I would welcome any helpful or just plain interesting insights any of you may be willing to share. thank you Dave G. at: Comnavbkyd@aol.com ********************************************************************* Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 19:58:55 -0800 From: Cat Farrar Subject: AI # 11 I've re-read the AI publications. I have noticed in AI # 11 the bottom line definition for an Amazon MUST include being athletic. See question # 13: Is she likely to be athletic? > Oh yes, that's not only likely, it is absolutley necessary. Of > course, a woman may be courageous, intelligent or sensual without > being athletic, but in that case she is not an Amazon. > Physicality is an essential and distinctive characteristic of an > Amazon. This contradicts your earlier comments about Amazons in question # 8: > I perceive the Amazon as the concrete expression of this ideal. > We are talking about physically and PSYCHOLOGICALLY strong > assertive women who are not afraid to break free from traditional > ideas about gender roles, relationships and femininity or > "feminine interests and behavior". So, if a woman has all the psychological requirements, but is not involved in physical pursuits, she does not qualify as an Amazon? What's up with that? So a woman could be an Amazon without the psychological aspects? A mindless bodybuilder? Cat ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Cat Farrar cat@cfmc.com What is good in my life; what needs to be done? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ********************************************************************* Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 1:30:53 +0100 From: Thomas Gramstad Subject: Re: AI # 11 Actually, I don't think they contradict each other as they stand -- > You probably aren't surprised that I've re-read the AI > publications. I have noticed in AI # 11 the bottom line > definition for an Amazon MUST include being athletic. See question > # 13: Is she likely to be athletic? "Oh yes, that's not only > likely, it is absolutley necessary. Of course, a woman may be > courageous, intelligent or sensual without being athletic, but in > that case she is not an Amazon. Physicality is an essential and > distinctive characteristic of an Amazon." > > This contradicts your earlier comments about Amazons in question # > 8: "I perceive the Amazon as the concrete expression of this > ideal. We are talking about physically and PSYCHOLOGICALLY strong > assertive..." physically AND psychologically... is what I'm saying here. For there to be a contradiction I think I'd had to have said physically OR psychologically... However, I'd agree that some elaboration may be necessary to clarify the point -- > women who are not afraid to break free from traditional ideas > about gender roles, relationships and femininity or "feminine > interests and behavior". > > So, if a woman has all the psychological requirements, but is not > involved in physical pursuits, she does not qualify as an Amazon? Well, I doubt that a woman can have all the psychological requirements, without at least at some point in her life having been involved in some physical pursuit. And if she has all the psychological requirements, she would be driven towards a physical expression of them. There is no mind-body dichotomy. Still, for the sake of the argument, let us assume such a dichotomy, i.e., a woman with all the psychological requirements, and still no physical pursuits. Perhaps someone born into a wheel chair or something. Such a woman could be as heroic as anyone else, but I don't think she would be an Amazon. So as I perceive them, the terms Hera (or female hero) on the one hand, and Amazon on the other, are not interchangeable; Hera is a wider concept than Amazon. All Amazons are Heras, but not all Heras are Amazons, the distinguishing characteristic being that physicality is a necessary part of the Amazon concept, but not of the Hera concept. This difference is not a moral one -- Amazons and non-Amazon Heras may have the same moral stature. Indeed, making this conceptual distinction makes it possible to be heroic without having to be a champion of some physical pursuit. Fair enough? > What's up with that? > > So a woman could be an Amazon without the psychological aspects? No, that doesn't follow logically; saying that A (in this case, physicality) is necessary does not exclude B (in this case, psychological aspects) from being necessary too. If A and B are considered as independent factors, as you dou in your argument, then the status of B is not determined by the status of A. Within that frame of reasoning I would say BOTH A AND B are necessary. But I do in fact go further than that, because my position is that A and B are not independent, you can't have the one without having the other. > A mindless bodybuilder? Have you ever seen a mindless female bodybuilder? I haven't, and I don't think it is possible within Western culture, because it takes a lot of mind power and "swimming against the cultural and social stream" to decide to become a female bodybuilder. A mindless woman would never get started on that course. There are male bodybuilders who have been "dumbed down" by accepting gender stereotypes and who may tend to consider their bodybuilding as part of becoming a Real Man, rather than as a means to express their unique individuality. But I'd suggest that even in these there is a tension between the gender ideas they believe to be true, and their growing individuality and awareness of the uniqueness of their body. - Thomas ********************************************************************* Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 18:44:02 -0500 (EST) From: Heroine100@aol.com Subject: The 100 Heroines Project CALL FOR INTERNATIONAL HEROINES: The 100 Heroines Project NOMINATE A HEROINE TO RECEIVE MONETARY AWARD AND GLOBAL RECOGNITION !! In the United States, 150 years ago, a handful of brave and heroic women held the first Women's Rights Convention near Rochester, New York, USA. This convention and the subsequent involvement of Rochester's own Susan B. Anthony launched the struggle by American women for equality under the law. In 1995, women from around the world met in Beijing, China to attend the United Nation's Fourth World Conference on Women. Nine of them were from Rochester, New York. These women united to form the Beijing Women of Rochester (BWR), and established The 100 Heroines Project in their commitment to continue the struggle for women's equality around the world. 1998, which is the 150th anniversary of the First Women's Rights Convention, and the United Nations Year of Human Rights is a perfect opportunity to honor not only our heroines from the past, but to recognize the heroines of today. Women who have the courage to speak out against unspeakable odds, women, who like our ancestors, have made supreme sacrifices in the name of women and the rights they deserve. These women refuse to accept the constraints and discrimination that limit their lives. They refuse to give in to the violence that threatens their health and the safety of their families. They refuse to remain silent. In their acts of courage they give voice to all women, hope to all humanity. They are heroines. Susan B. Anthony left us with the words "failure is impossible", and it is our hope that we can do justice to that legacy. That with the selection of 100 Heroines from around the world we can continue the fight to bring recognition to the courageous women who believe change is possible. To nominate a woman as a heroine, please provide the information requested below, and return it through electronic mail, fax, or mail. We invite nominations of women from all over the world who meet the following criteria: -- act courageously to achieve freedom and equality for women -- risk their social acceptance, health, financial security, or even their lives on behalf of women's rights, and -- serve as a role model for women and girls. Selected heroines will be honored with: -- a monetary award to support their continued fight for women's equality and freedom, and -- inclusion in a book of photographic essays. The book, which will be distributed globally to benefit other women, will depict the challenges these women face worldwide. INSTRUCTIONS: Provide the information outlined below, and send through e-mail, fax, or Postal Service to: E-mail: Heroine100@aol.com Mail: 100 Heroines, P.O. Box 23750, Rochester, NY 14692, USA Fax: (01) 716.586.7523 Phone: (01) 716.234.4292 PLEASE DISTRIBUTE THIS NOMINATION FORM FREELY. Completed nomination forms will be reviewed and the winners will be selected by a panel of judges. Nomination forms become the property of The 100 Heroines Project. The selected heroines will be notified by July 30th, 1998. NOMINATIONS ARE NOW BEING ACCEPTED AND ARE DUE NO LATER THAN FEBRUARY 28, 1998. PLEASE PROVIDE THE FOLLOWING INFORMATION, IN THE FOLLOWING ORDER, FOR EACH NOMINEE (on no more than 3 pages): 1. Biographical Information: Nominee's Name, Country / Nationality, Date of Birth, Address, Phone, Fax, Electronic mail address. 2. Describe the nominee's courageous activities on behalf of women and why she would be called heroic in her own country. 3. What challenges are the most difficult for the nominee to overcome in her struggle toward achieving equal rights and freedom for women? 4. Please provide a brief description of nominee's personal background. 5. Please provide the following information for TWO references for validation purposes: Name, Address, Phone, Fax, Electronic mail address. 6. Provide the following information on the person nominating the heroine (candidates may nominate themselves): Name, Organization, Address, Phone, Fax, Electronic mail address. Heroine100@aol.com ***************************************************************** * Amazons International * * Thomas Gramstad, editor: thomas@math.uio.no * * Administravia/Listserver: amazons-request@ifi.uio.no * * Submissions: amazons@math.uio.no * * http://www.math.uio.no/~thomas/lists/amazons.html * * * * The Amazon Connection -- Links to Amazon web sites: * * http://www.math.uio.no/~thomas/lists/amazon-links.html * ***************************************************************** "A Hard Woman is Good to Find" -- The Valkyries