Amazons International # 59 ************************** Contents: Editor: Manhood and Amazons Donna Gillespie: The Light Bearer Deborah Hambly: Sport and Spirituality Richard Lane: In Search of the Woman Warrior Cat Farrar: Bio Samantha Arnold: The Women's Cybrary Graham Armitage: A Man Who Prefers Stronger Women Julia Wilkinson: Women's Connection Online Date of publication: 31.10.97 ********************************************************************* From: Editor Subject: Manhood and Amazons I've been reading John Stoltenberg's two books, "Refusing to be a Man" and "The End of Manhood", which matches my own thinking very closely -- indeed, reading him feels more like digging into my subconscious than like learning something new. Basically he says that a person's identity as a "man" is based on difference from those who are "non-men". So, in order to become a man -- a Real Man -- a boy must separate himself from anyone who is considered "non-man" at the given time and place. You see the mutual exclusion and opposition at work here. But how or why would any boy engage in this process? Or: What happens if he doesn't? That is a power issue, because being a man means to have full rights, control, and to be protected from the power and possible violence of other men. Becoming a man is the boy's only available method of avoiding becoming a victim to male violence. Thus, the boy separates himself from all "non-men" -- women, children, sissies, homosexuals, blacks -- anyone who at the given time and place he can get away with placing below him in the power hierarchy that is the essence of "manhood", the fabric of male identity. And then the boy learns to suppress all characteristics, all experiences, all emotions that are associated with the "non-men". And he also learns to victimize the "non-men" in different ways, so that he can experience himself as a man, a Real Man, the one in control, the one who wields power. Stoltenberg spells out all this in all of its gory details at great length in the two books. Perhaps even more interestingly, he also suggests and spells out a lot of things one can do to remedy and solve the problems. His books are in fact positive and inspiring, and at times even humorous, in spite of the serious subject matter. So what does all this have to do with Amazons? Well, I'm going to suggest some connections, and some more ways to fight the problems. Have you, fellow man, ever experienced that you have abstained from some interaction with your girlfriend, distancing youself from her, because you feared some stranger's evaluation of your manhood? A stranger whom you'll never see again, and yet his opinion of you matters more to you in that moment than your girlfriend's opinion of you? Have you ever experienced being alone with your girlfriend, supposedly in privacy away from the world, and still being stuck in a place where other men's alleged opinion of your manhood matters more to you than your girlfriend's opinion of you? Have you ever wondered what other men would do to you if only they knew what a traitor of manhood you really are? I've been there, and I think every man has been there, even those whom most people would judge to be stereotypically masculine. You see, contrary to popular belief, the Western concept of masculinity or manhood is not about independence, not about autonomy, and not about personal courage. It is about subjugation of self to a group (other men and their alleged common norms of manhood); it is about hierarchical servitude, emotional alienation and self sacrifice to those perceived to be above you (the Real Men), and then you get the reverse corresponding pay-back via those perceived to be below you (the non-men). The smallness that the former make you feel is compensated by the bigness that the latter make you feel, that's how the system is supposed to work. In short: manhood is about dependence. Manhood is vertical and hierarchical, not horizontal or equal; the core of manhood is the chain of command and the chains of power, not the wings of freedom. No matter how well or how bad you fit in with all this in the first place, fighting it, when you make a conscious decision to do so, will be a formidable battle. If you fight it alone, you will stumble often. You will be the author of embarrassing actions, omissions or evasions that you never thought you could be guilty of. Even with allies you will stumble. But if you have a strong, powerful girlfriend, one who will not put up with manhood bullshit from anyone, one who will not be treated as a less-than-real non-man, an ally who is strong enough that she can make you feel protected because you feel that she is strong enough to protect you, and that together you have something worth protecting, then you have a powerful ally in the battle -- the battle for your becoming, not a "man" (the Real Man sex stereotype), but something much more demanding and valuable: a human, a unique individual person. So the manhood thing is closely related to women in general and Amazons in particular. Amazons are not only of value to women. Amazons may be of great help in facilitating and catalyzing the sorely needed deconstruction and transformation of manhood. Every man who wants such a liberation has a personal stake in the presence, prevalence and social/cultural weight of Amazons. That's not to say that every man who profess an interest in Amazons is thus motivated. We've had some previous discussions about objectification of Amazons; about Amazon women feeling that the attention of some men, or certain types of attentions, are not empowering or supportive, but the opposite. Stoltenberg describes a mechanism that may be involved in and may partially explain such tendencies. He posits that for many boys, danger and sexual desire are coupled or fused as a part of growing into the Real Man role. That is, danger is sexually exciting, and it is difficult to be sexually excited unless there is danger present. Recently I saw a TV program with so-called "base jumpers", people who jump with parachutes from buildings. Sometimes jumping without permission adds to the excitement. One of the jumpers said, with a smug smile after jumping without permission: "Ahhh... sex with the gods today too. Delicious!" Both men and women can enjoy danger and mastery, and I'm not saying that this has to be wrong. But if a sex life without danger holds no appeal, if the danger/sex is a means to try to maintain some fleeting, ephemeral sense of manhood, and if one's partner is nothing but an object to that end, then there is a problem. And perhaps it is this sort of motivation that leads some men to objectify and diminish Amazons, in spite of their professed claims of being Amazon admirers. In other words, that the motivation goes something like this: "Amazons are dangerous, therefore they are sexually exciting, therefore I must be a really Real Man if I can possess an Amazon." It's a complex world, and your comments are welcome... ********************************************************************* Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 19:26:38 +0000 From: Donna Gillespie Subject: The Light Bearer I was wondering if you might like to link my web page to yours? My site is for my historical novel, The Light Bearer. The URL is: http://www.lingstar.com/tlb/ The Light Bearer is set in ancient Rome and northern Europe in the 1st century AD; it's the story of a Germanic chieftain's daughter who takes the warrior's oath, and leads her people in their struggle against the Empire. It's the product of twelve years of research into the history, culture and mythology of classical Rome, and the proto-Germanic tribes. Thank you very much for your time! Best regards, Donna Gillespie dgille@sirius.com ********************************************************************* Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 18:53:23 -0600 (MDT) From: Deborah Hambly Subject: Sport and Spirituality? I am a newbie -- and so I'll post a brief introduction, but before I do, I must say how excited I was to read the goals and the beliefs of this Amazon group! I am doing a Master's (Mistress') degree in Sport Feminism. For my thesis topic I am studying the spiritual experiences of women in sport, physicial activity, martial arts and dance. I am currently looking for participants from the more 'Amazonian' type sports such as wrestling and power lifting etc. who would like to share their experiences of spirituality in this setting. If this topic interests you, please visit the following URL: http://www.wileyweb.com/sportspirit/ If you are willing to be involved in this study (maximum time commitment is 30 minutes) then just fill out part 1 of the survey. Thank You! Deborah Hambly c/o of PERGSS Dept. Of Physical Education and Sports Studies Van Vliet Center University of Alberta Edmonton, Alberta T6G 2H9 CANADA ********************************************************************* Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 08:29:04 -0700 From: rjlane Subject: In Search of the Woman Warrior We need the help of some confident, open-minded women -- individuals willing to share their ideas and life experiences in a confidential, national survey. We have developed a questionnaire that determines how cultural values, beliefs, and personal drives combine to form a portrait of the modern day warrior. This hierarchy is explained in the article "In Search of The Woman Warrior" which was first published in the Fight Master, Summer, 1995. The questionnaire we have developed will help you ascertain where in the hierarchy you are positioned and which way you are moving within it. Our findings, to be published by Element Books in the Fall of 1998, are part of a larger study of how strong women resolve life's conflicts and how these women have been depicted in history, literature, drama, and myth. This book should be important to all women who have excelled at a job, fought for a cause, led a team effort, suffered gender discrimination, or explored their own feelings about being a woman in our competitive and often male-dominated society. It would be of great help to us if you would take the questionnaire if you are interested or pass this message on to someone who might be. Additionally we are anxious to receive any stories of the woman warrior's quest whether in training, auditioning, teaching or performing, as a leader or as a member of the group. Some participants will be offered a chance to discuss their experiences in an in-depth telephone interview. If you wish to be considered for this phase of the study, please check the appropriate box on the questionnaire. Rest assured, the information you return will NOT be used for any purposes other than this study. To thank you for your help we will donate $1 to the nonprofit group you mark on the questionnaire. If you are selected for a follow-up interview, you will receive a free copy of the book upon publication with our compliments. To receive the questionnaire respond to this message with your name and surface address and it will be mailed to you with a pre-paid stamped envelope for return. We look forward to hearing from you. Sincerely, Richard Lane Jay Wurts co-author, "In Search co-author, "In Search of the Woman Warrior" of the Woman Warrior" author, "When Heaven and Earth Changed Place: author, "Swashbuckling" A Vietnam Woman's Journey From War to Peace" Woman Warrior Researchers 587 Lisbon Street San Francisco, CA 94112 415/239-6650 e-mail:rjlane@flash.net http://www.geocities.com/Broadway/Stage/5870/index.html ********************************************************************* Date: Sat, 20 Sep 1997 17:22:01 -0700 From: Cat Farrar Subject: Bio I'll open my story with a quote: "We live in our minds, and existence is the attempt to bring life into that physical reality; to state it in gesture and form." -- Author unknown My dictionary defines an Amazon as a tall, aggressive, strong-willed woman. If I were to ask my mother, "Do you think that's me?" she'd tell me, "Yes, and don't forget to include: bold, gusty, independent, strong-minded, out-spoken and PIG HEADED!" My mother was found of remarking, "Daughter, you're one hell of a BROAD!" A supreme compliment from her! This same dictionary describes Amazons as a nation of women warriors... Hmmmmm.. In grade school I didn't play rough and tumble with the guys. What I DID DO was to designate myself the leader of our clan. And of course, the opposing clan were the boys. We won most of our battles because of what I had learned from Saturday afternoon matinees (swashbuckler pirate films starring the indomitable Maureen O'Hara) and chess games with my mother. I became the great strategist -- accomplished organizer of our large-scale battles, fought on the playground at school! We were also victorious because of our courage and bravado! I did very well in high school, scoring A's and B's in math, english, history and physiology, but flunked out in my one non-academic course: The Art of Being Feminine. The class was designated pass/fail. Whether you passed of failed was determined by one thing -- could you get AND keep a boyfriend? I failed this class because I couldn't get a boyfriend, and had I gotten one, I never would have been able to keep him. I wouldn't curl my hair or wear layers of make-up; I liked to walk fast and open my own doors; I looked someone right in their eyes when they spoke to me, and laughed loud and hard at things I found funny. I wanted a career and had no plans to get married and raise a family. And...I failed miserably at feigning passivity and submission in bed. And, there was more... I wouldn't wear dresses, high heels or pastel colors. Instead, I wore pants, flat shoes and I filled my closet with black, red and purple. I had opinions, expressed them, and loved to argue a point to the ground. I spoke my mind and refused to engage in mindless vgossip. I was thrilled when graduation day finally arrived -- I thought that that would be the end to all this insanity! Well, I was wrong. For the last 22 years, I've continued to butt heads against these irrational ideas -- what does it mean to be a woman, and what does it mean to be a man? Did I ever get AND keep a boyfriend? Yes, I've had relationships and a six year marriage. But my Amazon qualities continued to be an issue for me, because they were an issue for my partners. I discovered Amazons International just a short time ago. Wow! And if I may burst into song...."What a difference a day makes!" It's refreshing and life-affirming to know that there are Amazon admirers out there in the world! Today, I live and work in San Francisco. I lift weights at my gym and plan on creating a body that matches my mind and spirit. What that means for me is a lot more strength and a lot more muscle mass. I want and need an integrated mind AND body. Also, I need to be ready for my Amazon admirer when he shows up in my life. :-) Thomas and I are in agreement on this issue, if I may quote him... "...the need for intimacy and love is a part of the human condition. Now, in my view, intimacy comes in many forms, and in a close relationship it is necessary that intimacy is not restricted to tender, soft or 'romantic' interactions; if the relationship is to be whole and all-encompassing it must include rough, passionate and aggressive interactions, because these elements are parts of human nature as well." (AI # 11) In AI #11, Thomas talked about erotic combat..."I think it is a part of the natural processes of human development -- in particular, the development of sensuality, the need for somebody to admire, the need for testing one's own strength and for finding appropriate ways of expressing energy and aggressive impulses." This was the missing piece to understanding my sexual-psychology; this was the NECESSARY component missing in my past relationships. This is what I WILL HAVE in my future! I know that it's strange, to make this statement at 40 years old, but for the first time in my life, I'm really clear on who I am -- down to my essential core. This bio is dedicated to Ripley, Newt, Hicks, Ayn Rand, Angelique, and of course, Thomas Gramstad. ~Cat ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ CAT FARRAR cat@cfmc.com "Is it honest?" "Is it kind?" "Is it necessary?" ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ********************************************************************* Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 09:19:24 -0400 From: Samantha Arnold Subject: The Women's Cybrary The Women's Cybrary has been launched at http://www.womenbooks.com/. With over 1000 links, you now have immediate access to a wide variety of women's writing on line. Find full texts of books, book and movie reviews, resources for women's studies and research, authors' pages and resources for writers. This is just the beginning! We are working furiously to add more links -- if we missed your favorite sites, please let us know. Anne-Marie Women's Bookshelf and Cybrary http://www.womenbooks.com/ annemarie@womenbooks.com ********************************************************************* Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 08:13:17 +0100 From: Graham Armitage Subject: A man who likes women who are stronger than himself My interest in Amazon women started when I read an article about a male weight-lifter (42 inch chest), who was always boasting to his wife how much stonger than her he was. She took up training herself and became not only far stronger than him -- even using two hands he would lose in arm wrestling -- but her chest grew to an amazing 48 inches. This complete physical role reversal absolutely fascinated me and I have collected similar articles ever since. I read this some 15 years ago and it resides in my memory as being printed in a women's magazine back then. Recently I came across an item in the problem page of a magazine. A woman complained that she took up bricklaying and working out with weights, thinking it would please her husband, and she now finds though only 9 stone, and her husband 15 stone (using British weights, a stone is 14 pounds), she is far stronger than him. She easily beats him at arm wrestling and said she now feels that even in boxing he would lose. In the article (in The Daily Sport newspaper sometime in 1996) she says she has lost all respect for the wimp and that when she confronts him about being far stronger than him he bursts out crying. Like many men he can't seem to handle a women who changes herself completely and becomes the stonger sex. Even more recently three more articles I remember reading about: (1) A picture of a schoolgirl age 15 in the 1930s with amazing muscular development. I haven't seen many men with such muscles, never mind a teenager! (This is from WPC Pamphlet 2 from the Orrin J. Heller Collection, which I purchased from LH-ART and can be bought from them.) (2) An article in my local press here in Liverpool about a female bouncer who, in seeking to stop a fight in a nightclub, beat up three men and is in court charged with this assault. She floored one of the men with a Kung-Fu style kick to the jaw, and the other two men fell under a fusillade of punches (The Daily Mirror, Saturday June 8, 1996). (3) I read about a well known American weight lifter/bodybuilder who for her weight category should be included on the top ten list of the strongest male weight-lifters in America. She would, if I remember correctly, be listed number three. They refuse to do this because she is a woman -- I think her name is Helen Warman. Once when her small car was blocked in by other cars, by lifting up the rear of her own car she was able to position it so that she she drive out. (This was an article in one of the well known bodybuilding magazines, possibly Muscle Mag International, about two years ago. The problem is, I have such a large collection of such publications, that unless I file the article it would take months to find.) I have only recently joined this group and I am hoping to open correspondence with women who are very strong, muscular, tough and aggressive. Here in England there just doesn't seem to be any such women around. Women who like to wrestle, arm wrestle or bend iron bars, YES I'VE GOT PICTURES OF WOMEN DOING THAT! I like the idea of a woman who is my physical superior and I am desperate to even talk to you. I am fascinated about how it effects you also mentally, for women are brought up and told they are the weaker sex. DROP ME A LINE, I'VE NEVER EVER EVEN SPOKEN TO AN AMAZON. Graham ********************************************************************* Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 16:08:00 -0400 (EDT) From: juliawilk@aol.com Subject: Women's Connection Online Hello, I wanted to see if you would be interested in introducing your subscribers to Women's Connection Online, http://www.womenconnect.com/ (WCO). I didn't want to violate netiquette or "spam" anyone but I think your users would find the content on WCO refreshingly relevant, worthwhile and thoughtful. Is it possible to provide the following summary to your users? Thank you for your consideration. Women's Connection Online (WCO) was founded over three years ago by Susan Williams DeFife to address the void of thoughtful, purposeful content for women online as opposed to the entertainment and consumer oriented content otherwise available. Over the intervening years, we have developed a site with over 1100 pages of timely, quality, relevant material covering issues of interest to women. WCO's free web site, located at http://www.womenconnect.com/, offers women a thoughtful and intelligent place on the Internet where they can find over 1100 pages of relevant, useful content and a strong supportive community. Visitors to the free website find the most current news on women's issues, a news archive containing the last 30 days of news relating to women, plus an extensive library covering health, politics, business, careers, finance, gender equity and many other topics, an exhaustive list of women's organizations and a regionalized events calendar. WCO offers non-profit women's organizations a free Internet presence and offers women business owners and professionals the capability, without charge, to create and host a business/professional home page on the Internet, have it listed with search engines, and included in a directory of women business owners on the WCO site (current plans call for available e-commerce upgrades for these sites for a monthly charge). Sincerely, Julia Wilkinson Community Builder, Women's Connection Online http://www.womenconnect.com/ jlwilkinson@ibm.net or juliawilk@aol.com ***************************************************************** * Amazons International * * Thomas Gramstad, editor: thomas@math.uio.no * * Administravia/Listserver: amazons-request@ifi.uio.no * * Submissions: amazons@math.uio.no * * http://www.math.uio.no/~thomas/lists/amazons.html * * * * The Amazon Connection -- Links to Amazon web sites: * * http://www.math.uio.no/~thomas/lists/amazon-links.html * ***************************************************************** "A Hard Woman is Good to Find" -- The Valkyries