Amazons International # 54 ************************** Contents: Greg Wilson: Amazon phenomena Pam Forder: Bio Barry Gross: Bio, "understanding ourselves" Andrew: Reply to mac, AI # 53 John: Reply to mac, AI # 53 Meriruka: letter from a tiny Amazon Abner Whateley: Carrie Cashin, P.I. Date of publication: 17.04.97 ********************************************************************* Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 22:22:24 -0600 (MDT) From: G. Wilson Subject: Amazon phenomena I'm taking a graduate seminar in feminist theory, and in doing some research on depictions of "strong women" I've stumbled upon this whole "Amazon" thing. I have a few questions that I'd like some feedback on from the men and women subscribers here. I'd really love some opinions. After looking over a few of the back issues of AI, one may perceive two strands of conversation at work. One carried on by physically strong women who are interested in validating and defining a femininity that is different than the usual weak and deferential stereotypes. We could call this a feminist project. The other strand seems to be carried on by men who are sexually attracted to large and strong women, and who perhaps enjoy rough physical encounters with such women. My questions then, are these. Does the sexual strand objectify the strong women in ways that detract from the women's efforts at feminist redefinition? How do the women feel about redefining themselves in the midst of sexually oriented admiration? Do they think what the men are writing and thinking is strange? Do they find it empowering? I would welcome responses to the list or to my own address. Greg Wilson gwilson@nmsu.edu ********************************************************************* Date: Sat, 1 Feb 1997 18:49:28 +0800 From: pjforder@tpgi.com.au (Pamela Forder) Subject: bio Hi, I am new on this list. I am a 27 year old female certainly, Amazon maybe! I enjoy boxing and for that I have to keep very fit and strong. When I was a teenager I was a good wrestler and enjoyed it a lot. Then I discovered boxing and now that's my sport. I dont look much like an Amazon, more like a swimmer. I certainly believe that women should achieve anything that men can, and I would like to hear from other women who feel the same. Especially those interested in full-on contact sports like mine. Pam Forder pjforder@tpgi.com.au ********************************************************************* Date: Mon, 24 Feb 1997 03:39:39 -0500 (EST) From: bgross7068@aol.com Subject: Bio and thoughts on "understanding ourselves" Hi everybody, my name is Barry, I'm 38, 5'5", and although I spent 5 years teaching ballroom & latin dancing, my build is more that of a football player. Since Feb 21 when I found this site I've been deciding what to say in this bio, but when you have a million thoughts running around your head sometimes the best thing to do is "wing it" and so I will. For as long as I can remember I've been an Amazon lover and although I am also attracted to more "feminine" women, deep inside I've always dreamed of one day settling down with an "Amazon type" woman. As a 5 year old I used to think how lucky Wonder Woman's boyfriend would be. As a 12 year old when the "popular girls" liked me, I was attracted to the girl jocks on the basketball team. As an 18 year old I saw my first female bodybuilder and my knees buckled. At 23 years a wheel fell off my car while driving (I wasn't hurt) in the middle of the night and 2 female officers came to help me (I had to talk them out of giving me a ticket), and I was instantly in love. My realization that my attraction to Amazons was a part of me was at 32 years at work. We were looking at People Magazine's "most beautiful people" and we were all deciding which woman we would pick if we had a choice. All the guys picked the typical model type "bimbos" and when I looked there was Gabriella Sabatini and I instantly picked her. When everyone sarcastically asked why, she has big shoulders, muscular arms and she stands there like she's a "tough guy" I said "yeah, isn't she outrageous". Everyone looked at me funny but I was glowing with the fantasy of being alone with her in the locker room after a match, and how sexy she would look all sweated up and my job was to please her. At this time I had already had a strong urge for spiritual exploration and this made me decide to find out and understand why I feel the way I do. After probably the most learned year of my life I was able to look in the mirror and say I love big and small strong women. The same way a woman thinks of a college athlete as a young stud, I see a womens college athlete and see her as a stud. The same way a woman loves the authority and power of a policeman in uniform, I think the only person braver and more courageous than a policeman is a policewoman. I love women bodybuilders and martial artists. Although I'm crazy about a strong physique its the psychological part that attracts me more. I have to force myself to do ab crunches yet I see a woman who has the mental strength to make her stomach like a washboard. I'm a strong guy, big shoulders, yet when I see Cynthia Rothrock (she's a 5'3" martial arts champ) I know that if we had to fight until someone had to give up it would probably be me. These are superior women mentally and physically and instinctively I know that I was meant to take care of and please them. When the gladiators of old came back from the arena there was one or several women there to take care of them. Amazons deserve to be treated the same way. And the shocker is NONE OF THIS MAKES ME ANY LESS OF A MAN. To avoid a long spiritual explanation for those not interested, we are all made up of male and female energy. This has nothing to do with masculinity of femininity, it's more of a state of mind. For example: Merlin Olsen, one of the toughest football players ever, later acting in Little House on the Prairie playing a big softspoken teddy bear type and also does commercials for flowers. This is a man with a large amount of female energy. Madonna with her aggressive style is a woman with a lot of male energy. Our souls live many lives as both genders and we often relate to the opposite sex with similar types of energy. For example, my attraction to an Amazon type woman is because in prior lives as a woman I was just like her. I'm relating to appreciating and loving myself. I know this is a lot to swallow but anybody who has any questions feel free to E-mail me. Understanding this, I'm secure in my feelings and wouldn't be ashamed to walk on a beach arm in arm with a 5'10" female bodybuilder because no matter what they say I know most guys would wish they were in my shoes. I don't think I'm any kind of expert or psychologist, but we are all on a search to understand ourselves and this is an area I understand. (sigh) well that was a mouthful. I will write in with many other thoughts in the future but before I close I want to share something. While scanning through the archives I remember someone asking in AI # 10 if there were any traditional dances where women were the leader. I was a ballroom teacher for 5 years (79-83) and in order to teach a woman to follow I had to know how to do it myself. Conversely when I trained a new female instructor she had to learn to lead. One new teacher, Diana, was my height with big shoulders, strong arms, and an Amazon attitude. She loved to lead and when I wanted to work on something else she said NO and she won. I loved every minute of it. What can I say? I'd love to correspond with women or other men, it would be great to speak to and maybe meet women who understand me. Well, take care everybody, and instead of reciting fantasies (which we all have) talk about your real self. keep smiling bgross7068@aol.com ********************************************************************* Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 17:36:53 -0800 From: Andy White Subject: Reply to mac, AI # 53 The letter from mac in AI # 53 "Where Are The Amazon Women?" was sad but true. I wonder if he realizes how much of what he said was truely sad. First of all, Amazon women are real people, not sex fetishes. Seems to me you make friends with an Amazon the same way you would any human, and if the interest is there it may progress to play. Lusty perverts can expect about the same amount of reciprocity from "concupiscent babes" on the net as they get in Real Life. Simple horniness disguised as respect or worship can usually be identified as such; by the expected response if no other (usually obvious) cues are available. After all, I respect, and in a sort of holy way even worship Mother Theresa, but I never expected her to fuck me. Never even thought about it. If you want to get involved with a real Amazon, why not try to get to know her first. If you still have some nagging fear that women will swallow you up if you get to know them, or that they are such bimbos that they aren't worth talking to, then either you don't have the courage to do justice to an Amazon, or you haven't met a real one. I think you will perceive what you believe in. Believe in real women -- believe in Amazons. If I were an Amazon, and I wrote to this group hoping to find a friend who enjoyed my strength, and I got some 2 or 3 line responses basically asking me when I wanted to fuck, I'd be disgusted. If mac gets that treatment, ever, I bet he'd be disgusted too. That's not respect, that's usury. Even men recoil when they realize a woman is just using them. So why not go all out..accept an Amazon as a sort of woman-man, and respect her as such. Kind of like a man with a pussy. A real person with interesting ideas, habits and such, and not a glossy mindless pinup. Leave the stereotyped ideas of how to act with girls behind along with the rest of the bullshit you learned in school. Learn to see what is really there. Then you can be with an Amazon and accept her power without having to think of yourself as a wimp...Nature is after all much larger and more diverse and strange than any of us will ever be able to imagine. Thank Goddess for that! Andrew ********************************************************************* Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 10:01:15 +0100 From: John Subject: Reply to mac, AI # 53 In AI # 53, mac wrote: > If, in fact, Amazons do not, or cannot, appreciate the domination > fantasies held by their admirers, then I must acknowledge that > damned immortal and immutable truth: Men are enslaved by a sex > drive that women do not possess -- and shall forever pay for it! > Thus has it ever been, thus shall it ever be. This may indeed be the case, and it does say something about the creator of the universe, if there is one. Maybe the creator gets its kicks from all this frustration? However all may not be lost -- virtual reality is coming. Or maybe society in its present form "straightens" women into more normal behaviour whereas it does not bother about men. What I am saying is that the ratio of men:women with this fantasy may be 1:1, but by the time the women are available for pairing off they have been dominated by men with ordinary desires and acquiesce to them, forgetting their Amazonian instincts. This theory is reinforced by the fact that most girls have a boyfriend 3-5 years older, i.e., there are few women for 16 year old males. A 16 year old male may in fact work out his Amazonian fantasies and become more conventional if given a willing girl to play with, but by the time he gets a girl when he is aged 25 they are fixed and not alterable. One can take this further and suggest that if males and females were allowed to play with each other as they grow up a lot of the male deviations would be worked out. It is the segregation of the sexes (possibly necessary from the point of view of teenage births) that gives the opportunity to fantasise and try to make fantasies reality. In pre-historic times, births at 13 or 14 were necessary as the average age of death was around 20 to 25. The necessity of births at a later date is clearly apparent now, with the longer period of education and preparation for our complex society. Maybe as a civilisation we ought to consider that the widespread use of contraceptives and sex hygiene education is preferable to segregation. -- Sincerely, ************************************************ * Publisher of Wrestling Fun * John * contacts and articles for m/f wrestling fans * * details on request * ************************************************ "Find someone who will willingly do it, don't just talk about it." ********************************************************************* Date: Tue, 9 Jul 1996 17:01:27 -0700 From: meriruka@interserv.com Subject: letter from a tiny Amazon Hi there. I just read AI # 53 and I must say that my idea of what qualities constitute an Amazon differs dramatically in comparison to what I have read from other subscribers. I had always thought that were they to take applications for Amazonship, I'd be accepted immediately. Now, however, I'm not so sure. Here's my list of qualifications: 1. Independent. (Financially and more importantly, emotionally.) Men are "nice to haves", not necessities. 2. Fearless. (But not reckless) step on that bug, slide on the ice, jump off the plane, grab the chainsaw... 3. Solitary. Being alone is NOT a bad thing. If you don't enjoy your own company, no one else will. (Took myself to Egypt last year..best vacation I ever had.) 4. Educated. Teach yourself everything that interests you no matter how tough it looks. (Bought myself a brand new Harley and taught myself to ride it.) Read a lot. The more you learn, the more interesting you are to talk to when you decide you'd like company. 5. Active. Don't be afraid to do things typically considered "male" activities if it's something you want to do. Build a deck, gut a deer, play football (get good medical insurance). 6. Feminine. Don't be afraid to celebrate the fact that you're female. Wear lace, grow your nails, decorate. Know that you are the equal of any man yet wonderfully different. 7. Loyal. Stand by what you believe...ALWAYS. Stand by the ones you love, cuss them out later in private. Never back down to bullies. (Again, get good medical insurance.) 8. Healthy. While your body is not as important as your mind, the better shape it's in, the more cool things you'll be able to do. Don't obsess about it, be proud and if you choose to share it with someone, be sure they understand what a gift they're getting. (That last works both ways.) 9. Strong. Endure, never give in or up. Get through it on your own. Don't let anyone tell you that you can't do something, find that out on your own, then have a good laugh if you screw up. (Took sword fighting lessons and promptly got the sword stuck in the ceiling.) 10. Caring. A womans capacity to love is legendary. You can be all of the other things above and still be compassionate. Just make sure there is a balance of give and take. Never settle for less than your equal match. (That means no cowardly, sniveling, insecure males who need to be dominated.) Love should never diminish you. Well, that's it, I guess. I just don't think you have to be six feet of rippling muscle to be an Amazon. As a matter of fact I think my own five foot four, 110 lb. frame does quite nicely. And if there are any objections, I will deal with them in my own Amazon way. meriruka@interserv.com ********************************************************************* Date: Sat, 01 Mar 97 21:20:00 -0600 From: abner.whateley@the-matrix.com (Abner Whateley) Subject: Before Wonder Woman there was... You can find a lot of strong women characters in fiction today, but that was not always the case. Back in the hayday of the old pulp magazines from the late 1920's until their disappearance in the early 1950's most women in the detective or hero pulps where either victims, floozies, ruthless vixens, sweethearts, or saintly mothers. There were a few women who somewhat broke out of the mold, such as Nina Van Slone in the hero pulp series The Spider, whom they once had donning a diving suit and going after a sunken inactive killer robot, but you can be sure they only let Richard Wentworth the Spider deal with the robots that were still live kicking and killing! No, there were no female Shadows or Sam Spades...Well, there was one. From 1937 to 1943, Street & Smith, the publishers of Doc Savage and the Shadow magazines, came out with Crime Busters. The idea of C.B. was as sort of a tryout magazine for new detective and action characters with the goal of setting the ones that did the best in their own magazine. From the first issue along with the racetrack detectives, Click Rush the Gadget Man, one-man racket squads, song writing detectives, and magician sleuths there was private eye Carrie Cashin by Theodore Tinsley. Carrie Cashin was often given the lead in the magazine as well as the cover, and in a poll that was taken for each issue to see which characters where doing the best with readers, Carrie always came in 1st, 2nd or 3rd place. But neither she nor any of the others never made in into their own pulp. But just who was Carrie, and what kept her in or near the lead of Crime Busters for six years? Theodore Tinsley was a writer of stories for Black Mask and dozens of other pulps as well as a sometimes fill-in writer of Shadow novels. While a private detective, Carrie Cashin was more along the lines of the Shadow and kin than the tough guy detectives. She was the owner of the Cash and Carry Detective Agency, a firm made up of Carrie herself and her partner/stooge Aleck Burton, a tough but not overly bright fellow who's only useful function was to pose as the head of the agency for clients who could not handle a woman boss, and to give someone to stand in for the reader so that she could explain things to him at the end. The novels themselves are very fast-moving, with Carrie not just hunting for clues and suspects, but for the most part moving in headlong action through most of it, her method was about one third deduction and two thirds acrobatics. Dashing along the thin stone ledge of a building a dozen or more stories up, breaking and entering into the lair of some strange villain (sometimes she seemed to use windows to get into and out of rooms more often than doors), fending off the attack of any number of crazed dagger holding assassins, dodging the cops after being framed, high dives, leaping away from and to trains and cars, braking arms, and enough gun play to put a long weekend in L.A. to shame. So before V.I. Warshawski, Modesty Blaise, Honey West, or even Wonder Woman there was Carrie Cashin. But, having said that where do you find her? Only a small handful of the old pulps have been reprinted, there are a few reprint magazines that hunt through the dusty crumbling old mags. And some few have been reprinted here and there, and the old pulp market has not gone insane like the comic book market and so they can still be had for pretty fair prices, IF you can find one that is not brittle as the dead sea scrolls! I don't know, maybe there is someone out there who knows someone in the publishing game, and could put a bug in their ear? I think it would be worth the effort. Of the four that I have been able to get hold of, all of them are very entertaining reads. ***************************************************************** * Amazons International * * Thomas Gramstad, editor: thomas@math.uio.no * * Administravia/Listserver: amazons-request@ifi.uio.no * * Submissions: amazons@math.uio.no * * http://www.math.uio.no/~thomas/lists/amazons.html * * * * The Amazon Connection -- Links to Amazon web sites: * * http://www.math.uio.no/~thomas/lists/amazon-links.html * ***************************************************************** "A Hard Woman is Good to Find" -- The Valkyries