Amazons International # 52 ************************** Contents: Eve: Greetings; Way of the Warrior Cindy: seeking other women who scissor their man Gerry: Bio Kid N.:Bio, height, the word "girl" (and grrl) Venky: Bio Date of publication: 16.06.96 ********************************************************************* Date: Fri, 7 Jun 1996 20:55:54 -0700 From: greyowl@gvn.net Subject: Greetings! Hello! I am new to this list. I'm a 33-year-old happily married woman, and I love studying my favorite Korean martial art, Tae Kuk Mu Sul. I also maintain a website devoted to the Way of the Warrior: http://www.gvn.net/~greyowl/warrior/warrior.html I encourage everyone to check it out and submit comments for possible revisions and updates (and sign my guestbook). I'm also interested in corresponding with other intelligent, assertive women -- please tell me there are more true Amazons out there! :-) On Raven's Wings, Eve (aka Scathach) ********************************************************************* Date: Thu, 18 Jan 1996 20:13:18 -0500 From: Lion21@aol.com Subject: seeking other women who scissor their man Hi, As my bio/submission for "amazons", I thought I'd write about the wrestling that me and my husband enjoy. When we were first married, Tom liked me to wrestle with him, but I couldn't give him much competition at all. My husband Tom is really a better wrestler than me, but through hard work over several years I have made myself stronger than him, especially my legs. He now works out like mad to try to keep up with my strength increases, but his body does not develop as well as mine does. He is close to my height, and only a couple pounds heavier. My bodybuilding has made me quite strong, especially my lower body. I have become quite serious about my working out, and my muscle strength and size has increased a lot the last several years. So much so, that I no longer dare use my full strength in scissoring my husband. I can easily squeeze him 'til he can't breathe, and he gasps for me to release him, which I quickly do. It takes maybe one-half of my full strength, I'd guess. I'd be really interested in hearing from other women who can also make their husband (or boyfriend) give up using a scissor grip. It was my husband's suggestion that I start exercise to strengthen my legs. I knew how effective a body-scissor grip was when he used it on me, and I wanted to be able to turn the tables on him. I started with squats, leg presses, and leg extensions. After a while (it took about 3 years), I started to get stronger, and also, from play-wrestling with him, I learned how to get him in the same grips that he would get me in. I don't remember exactly how or when I could first make him give up in my scissor grip, but I finally did, and it felt great, and he was very surprised, and he liked it. I kept working out, getting stronger, and it got easier and easier to scissor him, until now it's very easy for me, and now we both know he is finished as soon as I can wrap my legs around his body. Sometimes I get him in my "spread-eagle" grip, where I wrap my legs around his legs, and just spread my legs. He feels like he's being split apart, and gives up immediately. My husband cannot resist this "grapevine" grip at all. I think that leg grips are very effective when used by a female, partly because of our wider hips, and especially if she has strong legs. A woman's strength is naturally concentrated in her lower body, which can be stronger than an equal or larger size male. By the way, leg strength is not the only thing you need to squeeze someone effectively in a scissor grip. You need to know how to USE your strength effectively, which involves hooking your ankles together, and powerfully straightening you legs, using your thigh (quadriceps) muscles, which can be made quite strong. Inexperienced people (even if they have strong legs) often try to squeeze their legs together incorrectly, using their inner thigh muscles, which are much weaker. Or, they can't squeeze hard because their ankles hurt them when they try to squeeze hard. I used to practice squeezing a couple of pillows or rolled-up blankets about the size of Tom's body. This practice made a big difference in my effectiveness, but I don't need to do it any more. Also, you have to know WHERE to squeeze the victim to be most effective, especially if you need all your strength to do it. My husband and I like to fantasize about what I could do to a man about my size who tried to force himself on me. I would first make believe I was giving in, so I could lure him between my legs. Then, I'd suddenly scissor his body, and squeeze with all my might, while I hold his wrists so he can't do anything. I know he wouldn't even be able to say he gives up, because he would be unable to breathe or speak. He'd get very panicky, turn all red, and I think I could even break his ribs with my legs. I'd just keep crushing him 'til he passed out, which I don't think would take very long. I'm sure I could even kill him if I wanted to, by just not letting go. My husband loves it when I tell him this fantasy. The only other person I ever wrestled is a female friend of ours ... she works out, is in fairly good shape, and she runs. She has a nice-looking body, a bit taller, about 5-6, about the same weight as me. Tom wanted to watch, and the other girl thought it would be fun, so we did it one afternoon, in our back yard. I was surprised ... it was so easy for me to control her, it was no effort for me at all, and she was very taken aback at how strong I was ... it sort of frightened her. She said she thought it would be an even match. I just got her down and scissored her, she turned red and quit immediately. Actually, both of us were very surprised at the outcome. I didn't realize how strong I had become, and neither did she. I am so accustomed to Tom's strength level, I just expected her to be about like him, but she wasn't at all, she was so much weaker. Over time, I have developed my strength and skill to where I really can usually beat my husband in a fair wrestling fight, which excites him a lot. He's really intimidated by my scissor grip. If I can get my legs around him, he has to submit immediately. Sometimes I wonder how I would do against someone a bit bigger than him. We each weigh 135 pounds. I would be interested in hearing from other women who wrestle and scissor their man. Cindy ********************************************************************* Date: Wed, 3 Jan 1996 18:03:32 -0500 From: snyder@mail.erols.com Subject: Bio Hi Thomas, It was a bit of an effort to get on your mailing list, but I have read several of your back issues, and consider the effort well worth it. You run a great mailing list, and I am very impressed with the quality of people supporting it. I hope I will be able to make a positive contribution, and look forward to conversing with some of the good people I have read about. I'm not sure when my interest in physically strong women developed, but I know it has been there since I was in grade school. I was fascinated in fifth grade by Debra, who was challenged by, and beat every boy, including me, at arm wrestling. I also admired Alah who came in first in the 600 yard dash, a physcial fitness test. I do however also remember how strange I felt for feeling this way, and remember seeing "The Fabulous Mulah" (sp?) on the cover of a wrestling magazine in a double bicep pose and thinking wow! The guilt I felt at admiring her...completely dressed in a bathing suit, made me feel like I was sneaking peeks at X-rated magazines. Boys/men were supposed to be the strong ones. I'm still figuring myself out. I like to win at sports and any competition, as well as the next person, but find it easier to take a supporting role in a relationship. My older sister was superior intellectually, and as I followed her in school and got some of the same teachers, I would hear raves about how great she was. A little embarrassed, I would also feel very proud of the association with her. Being in the presence of a superior woman, physically or mentally has always motivated me to try and be better, as long as their superiority is not shown with meanness, but support, encouragement and acceptance of me even if I am not as bright or athletic as my companion. Perhaps this is a flaw in myself, looking for outside support and guidance instead of looking internally. Reading what little I have read it appears that there are numerous women who have made incredible accomplishments, and I hope to view these as an inspiration and work on my own self-improvement. Unlike your typical "wimp" stereotype, I would love to be respected, admired for what I can contribute, and appreciated for whatever I can offer to a SO in a supportive way. Everyone wants to contribute, and be heard once in a while. I also feel that women who abuse their superior abilities, treating their SO as a wimp, trash, and scum, are no better than the abusive males, constantly berating their "lovers" as "worthless bitches" or worse. Male or female, strength combined with compassion is the ultimate trait to admire...not because it is dictated by the superior party, but because it is deserved and earned. Again, I am glad I found your board, and hope to reach new levels of self-growth in '96, inspired by these very gifted and remarkable women. Thanks. Gerry From Va. ********************************************************************* Date: Sat, 25 Nov 1995 02:05:37 -0800 From: Kid Nunzio Subject: Bio, height, the word "girl" (and grrl) I think AI is a great idea. I am not a huge fan of female bodybuilders per se, primarily because I think all that bulging muscle is an unnatural state for EITHER sex: male or female. I do find muscular women very attractive, but my definition of "muscular" seems to differ from the preferences I see expressed in AI. To me, a body which is well-toned (it must be visually VERY obvious) is sexiest. The other requirement is that the woman must be tall (I dig women between 6' and 6'3".) I love long legs on a tall girl! In my view, height equals power. When we survey a person's physical characteristics to see how they stack up against another's (especially in a potential confrontation), probably the first thing we consider is height (followed by weight and then only do we consider apparent muscle bulk.) This is because height is one of a person's most glaringly obvious physical attributes. We almost always expect that a 6'4" man would be able to prevail over a 5'9" male. Similarly, I would expect that a female who is 6'1" might be able to prevail over a male who (like me) is 5'7"-5'8", especially if that female is in top physical condition (if she works out and is toned!) Actually, it is not really important who prevails in a fight. What is important is that she LOOK like she can prevail (if she is 5-6 inches taller than me she probably has a good chance, anyway; at least a good chance of winning 50% of the time!) I also mentioned I can be (and am) attracted to a wide variety of physical types of women, each for different reasons. At least, I can surmise that each type of woman fulfills some deep psychosexual need within myself. On the one hand, I can be extremely attracted to stereotypical "hyperfeminine" women who wear frilly clothes, play up their weakness and defenselessness, and rely on me for everything. That urge seems to fill one inner need. A diametrically opposed psychosexual need is fulfilled by the "Amazon," as we call them. Interestingly, most of my relationships with women (except for one) has been with the "hyperfeminine" type -- small, curvy, sweet, and dependent. One relationship was with a woman who was indeed an Amazon -- an inch taller than myself, a strong, broad-shouldered, well-muscled Hungarian-American amateur swimmer who had an EXTREMELY assertive (stereotypically masculine) personality AND an extremely assertive and demanding sexuality (also stereotypically masculine -- she was first and almost always the sexual aggressor -- which I did NOT particularly like!) I'm a big fan of women's basketball and volleyball (college and high school, in no particular order.) I watch more women's basketball than men's basketball when I am alone. I like seeing tall, confident, athletic women dash around the court and display their agility and strength. To me, greater height not only equals greater strength, but also greater agility. I love women who can run fast. I also like the fact that the women's game is getting more and more physical: these girls are not afraid to charge one another on the court, foul each other, etc. Sometimes I imagine myself on the same court playing with two teams of big girls (all at least 6' tall.) I wouldn't last long, but it would be fun! In the newspaper recently I read about a girl who is a high school basketball player, who, at 6' tall, towers over her father who is only 5'8". The article quoted him as saying he is proud of his daughter, and, "In my generation, six foot girls would slouch. Now, six foot girls are very common and very athletic." This struck me because it shows how much times are changing. In the past (this gentleman's generation), girls who grew to 6' tall were ashamed and psychologically hobbled. They walked with their heads down, moving about meekly and giving the impression that their fondest wish was to be smaller, shorter. They were victims, obviously, of sexist imprinting from a very early age, which said, "Big girls are awkward, clumsy, manlike, and unattractive." But things are changing. Because a federal law in the U.S. (called Title IX) has dictated the sexes be treated equally in all school sports -- high school and college -- every school must devote equal, or nearly equal, financial resources to creating and maintaining teams for male and FEMALE athletes. This meant an aggressive nationwide campaign to foster interest in sports such as basketball among girls. It is now approximately twenty years since the government began aggressively enforcing this law. Attitudes of young women toward physical activity and formerly male-dominated sports have changed a great deal. There is now room for the serious female athlete in the high schools and universities of the US. More and more, we are seeing young women who are "six footers" walking around with supreme confidence, thrilled with their height and their athletic bodies. They are not afraid to kick up their legs, swing their arms out wide, run up a flight of stairs, jump a fence, or rush headlong into other girls of their size on the basketball court. I have always wanted to be with a taller woman, on the order of 6' to 6'3". Not heavy, but not thin -- a girl with a tight, athletic frame and very long legs. Her weight should be in proportion to her height -- the volleyball player/professional model Gabrielle Reece would be a prime example. I now live in California but I moved here from the east coast of the US. When I first moved here, I thought I would see many such young women here, but there seemed to be many more "Amazon" types on the east coast, from New York City to Washington to the southern states. Better nutrition, I guess: New York Steak and Eggs versus California Fast Food. Southern Fried Chicken and Grits versus Mexican tacos. Another issue I want to discuss briefly is my use of the word "girls." This has become a "hot" topic among young feminists in the US recently. It used to be that using the word "girl" to describe a physically full-grown woman was thought to be sexist, at least by the mainstream of the feminist movement. Though this usage was once common in the US, the feminist movement strongly urged against it, arguing that the word carried connotations that portrayed women as "childlike," "weak," "diminutive," "dependent." I noticed one of your subscribers who posted an interesting bio referred to herself as a Riot Grrrl (AI # 23). This (the Riot Grrrls) is a movement of young female punk rockers which evolved beginning around 7-10 years ago, I believe, to promote feminist values in the alternative music scene, which has always (like every other music scene!) been male-dominated. Their use of the term "grrrl" (a deliberate misspelling of "girl") was apparently latched onto by some younger feminist thinkers who wanted to "reclaim" the word "girl" for feminism. Their premise was that the word was in fact liberating, and that it SHOULD be used to describe fully-grown women. Our society tends to think of grown men, when they are together and acting rowdy, playing sports, hanging out, etc. as "boys" (e.g., a woman will tell a female friend that her husband is "out playing with the boys".) This usage gives grown males a license to do things that grown females aren't supposed to do. It carries connotations of youth, vitality, strength, capriciousness, and "pushiness." The latter three or four of those characteristics have always been available to men, but for women, they have been closed off. Unavailable. Women, after they are fully grown, are supposed to act a certain way, to be demure and shrinking and..."feminine." Reclaiming the word "girl" for grown women (obviously it would be used especially for young grown women, say 18-30, who have up to now been called only "women" by a society that wishes not to offend) -- this would create a new reality. Whereas the name, "woman," seems to lock a young female into the roles of marriage and childbearing simply by uttering it, the name "girl," when applied to the same young female, liberates her from those things. She is not, in the old sense of the word, a vulnerable, demure little vestal virgin; she is now a confident, assertive, self-actualized, independent-minded young AMAZON who revels in her youth and power and pushes herself to the limit in whatever she does! The word "girl," when applied to a modern young female who is strong, athletic, and supremely confident, is imbued with a special kind of vitality, a boldness and brashness that flaunts her power, her physical and mental competence, and her ability to act capriciously and unpredictably. It proves that females can be every bit as wild, aggressive, bold, and challenging as males. We will know the sexes have truly arrived at equality when a man can tell his male friend that his wife is "out playing with the girls." (Whether she is "playing" in a nighclub or "playing" on the basketball court isn't important!) Thanks for the attention you've given to my long message and I hope it has given you something to think about! -Kid Nunzio ********************************************************************* From: Venkatesh S. Deshmukh Subject: Bio Date: Wed, 6 Sep 1995 23:50:34 +0500 (GMT+0500) I am a 23 yr. old male, a mechanical engineer by profession, after working in Steel industry for two years, now doing my M.S. in Mechanical eng. at the Indian Institute of Science, Bangalore. I was born and brought up in Bombay & had been working there, it's only an year since I have been staying in Bangalore. (I hope you know that's India.) I love two things beyond limit. Firstly, thick shapely & strong female muscle (in fact I like the whole muscular female) & secondly mathematics. I would love to get squeezed in a strong hold of a massively muscular female while watching the movement of the muscles in her arms. I really value the dilligent efforts put in by an individual to attain this kind of heavenly shape, especially by a female because they are the ones who are always put under enormous pressure about how they present themselves in the society. As far as reactions of the other people are concerned, my friends, most of them say that I am a homo. Most frequent answer being "I really doubt your tendencies". In India, we don't have female bodybuilders. But we do have a great deapth in women's power sports such as powerlifting or weightlifting. These lifters generally put on a good show in any of the international meets they participate. But the kind of rewards they get is very saddening. I think that the cocept of muscular female (like a male bodybuilder) will take a lot of time to strengthen its roots in India. As to now, at least I haven't seen a female bodybuilder in India. I have a question for those female members of the group who put in considerable efforts to build their bodies. As a member of society, you must be interacting with lot of people. You must have faced certain situations when looking at your physique, some people who don't accept the concept of a woman stronger than average male, might have commented something or challenged you to do a particular thing. For example, it may happen that you are wearing a sleeveless top & skirt while moving in a public place (going to office, college or a party) & upon seeing your well developed arms or shoulders or muscular calves someone in the crowd (party attender/office personnel/friend) challenges you for an arm wrestling match. In this regard following incidences may also happen. 1. If you are a teacher what is the reaction of students in the class? 2. If you are working in office and one fine day you are wearing clothes that show your muscularity, do you get reactions from other people in the office? Thanx for listening to me for such a long time. I am sure I'll be more comfortable in this group since I know now for sure that my preferences are perfectly normal. -Venky ***************************************************************** * Amazons International * * Thomas Gramstad, editor: thomas@math.uio.no * * Administravia/Listserver: amazons-request@ifi.uio.no * * Submissions: amazons@math.uio.no * ***************************************************************** "A Hard Woman is Good to Find" -- The Valkyries