Amazons International # 50 ************************** Contents: Andy: Bio & "One of the Guys" Matthew: Coming out in Australia... Ken T: Bio Kate B: Call for submissions to gender book King Dice: Women & kickboxing Date of Transmission: 30.10.95 ************************************************************** Date: Mon, 23 Oct 1995 11:04:07 -0800 From: Andy White Subject: Bio & "One of the Guys" Two years ago I subscribed to Amazons International without sending a bio. Things have changed a bit for me since then, so am sending the bio here, and incidently raising a new issue at the same time. I was born a girl 36 years ago, in Wisconsin. Took after my dad. Looked like him, thought like him. Played football with the boys, and was a damned good tackle. In fact most of my friends were boys, until puberty hit. Now the guys were treating me different. I wasn't "in" anymore. This was awful for me. Well, I got along, went to college, got a BA in Fine Arts, and moved west to work on ranches, which is what a BA in Fine Arts gets ya. Now I work in construction. The best part about the job besides the paycheck is the cameraderie. I like the company and friendship of men. Problem is, I still get treated "different" by some of the more rigid thinking-(?!) men. So here's the thing. I am genetically female, got all the equipment, etc. Not too bad lookin I hope. But, I would rather be "One of the Guys" than a girl with guys. How do you Amazons and Admirers react to that? I am not running a personal ad here, though I always like to find like-minded friends. I am not suggesting that I like men ONLY for friends, either. I am not a lesbian. More of an apprentice Hero-worshipper, if you must know, though I am pretty picky about who I worship these days. 8-} Beyond the inevitable question of who you go to bed with, there's a personality that bends the gender roles in many ways. Dont know how to talk about it all yet, I invite discussion. Lets just say for now that the entire gestalt is one of maleness rather than femaleness, in a positive way! despite the plumbing. Whaddaya think? In addition, this female man likes cats, farming, hard work, science fiction, and collects underground comic books. You can call me -- Andy Cat ************************************************************** Date: Sat, 28 Oct 1995 02:50:53 +1000 From: b3016957@student.anu.edu.au Subject: Coming out in Australia... Hi! I'm very glad that I have finally found a "club" in which I feel at home, so to speak. For many years I have always admired strong/tall, muscular, well-toned women. I myself am male and about 1.9 metres, 90 kgs (6'3, 198 lbs) so I suppose this would be part of the explanation, although muscle tone and bulk would be what I find the most attractive, along with an independent,individualist personality. In my high school there were quite a few Amazon women, 6 of them in fact, mostly athletes and weightlifters. Although occasionally they would show off their muscles to each other and arm-wrestle each other, there was little if any interaction with the guys. It was almost as if, although they were obviously strong, they were ashamed or embarrassed about their strength, muscle mass etc. For me, a muscular, strong, independent woman is attractive, as opposed to the wide-spread notion that such women are ugly. Well defined and obviously very fit they just outshine the catwalk model type woman who just doesn't have it, from my point of view. More on these 6 amazons. One was a karate blackbelt with a very wide chest and sinewy, toned but rather skinny shoulders. She'd arm-wrestle other girls and flex her muscles occasionally, and she appeared to be happy to arm-wrestle guys, although no-one availed her. So, she was an Amazon with high muscle tone but not much muscle bulk. Two other girls were both weight-lifters (one light and the other heavy). Once again they'd arm-wrestle other girls but were extremely reluctant to show off their muscles. All that work and yet they were ashamed to show off the fact of their superior strength. The same goes for the others, with one exception. She was a Chinese girl, who throughout high school had a fascination with muscles. She'd arm-wrestle other girls and guys if you got her turned on enough, and did some light weight lifting. She'd show off her fists and flex her muscles in class for no apparent reason on numerous occasions. Although her whole body was not all well toned, it was her torso/chest that drew my attention. She had thick toned muscular shoulders and I mean very thick shoulders. One day in class I saw her flexing her muscles to another girl saying "here, feel this one" and then just flexing her pecs. When she beat another girl in arm-wrestling once, she called that girl a wimp. So, she'd always flex her muscles to other girls and to everyone at times but if a guy just asked her to flex--she too would become withdrawn and shy, like it wasn't the right thing for her to show off her strength to a male. Indeed, when she did flex her muscles to another girl once, I heard a girl sitting near me say to her classmate, "there's something wrong with her!". When even amazonic women are ashamed themselves to celebrate their strength, there is not much hope of a guy approaching them and saying that he appreciates them from a physical point of view, as they become shy or embarrassed, which is why I am here now. There are guys out there who appreciate women for their personality and build, especially an independent muscular woman. But as long as these women themselves are ASHAMED to show off in public, what hope is there of them finding a guy who really appreciates them for their unique physical qualities? This particular Chinese lady, whom I was with at a nightclub once, started talking with me about the subject of muscles (a conversation which I had to start as it obviously wasn't "right" for her to talk about muscularity). It took about 20 minutes to half an hour of talk and suggestions about why she had such big muscles and why she did weightlifting. She "didn't know" why she did weights and when I asked her why she showed off her muscles occasionally but was too shy to do it in front of guys she said "because". During the conversation she would just flex her pecs for 10 seconds now and then (we were in a dark corner of the club so no-one could see her) and from her talk she obviously had an interest in muscles and weightlifting. After about half an hour of talk I finally got to feel the muscles in her left arm which were quite bulky and hard, although she had stopped doing weights about 2 weeks earlier. When I asked her why she had stopped doing weights she replied because her muscles were "too big, too lumpy" and that she wouldn't fit in etc. It just wasn't right and she was scared that that she'd look weird. My only regret is that I didn't ask her for an arm-wrestle as I know now she'd have said yes. Occasionally, I still see her on the bus and sometimes she'll concentrate on her fists or say things like "do you think my muscles are big?" or "do you think anybody would have muscles like this?" etc. But it looks like she has stopped weights and is just another girl of average build, although she retains some muscle tone and the bulk is still there. But the actual lumpiness and strength in those arms have greatly diminished. So this girl was basically the classic example of an Amazon. Strong, muscle toned and proud of her muscles but too afraid to come out and become her true self i.e., a woman of strength who has muscles and is proud of it. Furthermore, any guy who'd come out and admit that he was attracted to her muscles or admired her for them might have caused her to become more withdrawn or embarrassed or ashamed. Here was a girl who was "it" in terms of being an Amazon, but due to social pressures isn't one physically any more, though perhaps she still is mentally. Here in Australia, a guy who says he's attracted to muscular women and enjoys arm-wrestling, tests of strength etc. would be thought of as a weirdo and any girl who is physically too strong would be ridiculed. It is almost impossible to find a personal ad like "female bodybuilder seeks male for relationship, movies, restaurants, clubs, discussions, arm-wrestling, wrestling, muscle flexing etc. etc., and if there were such an ad it would probably attract a fair share of BD/SM (not that I am criticising it), rather than guys who appreciate muscle and a female as an equal. Strong women (as shown) are present in all cultures but are expected to conform which I think is a great shame. There is nothing wrong with being a strong female who enjoys showing off her muscles or arm-wrestling guys, tests of strength etc. In fact, if a muscular lady came up to me at a nightclub and said "Hi, I've got big muscles, I enjoy showing them off, I enjoy wrestling, I enjoy arm-wrestling and I'm very strong", I'd be quite happy to get to know them better. However, that is unlikely to happen due to perceived social norms. I really appreciate Amazons International and would be quite happy to discuss my views with anyone else via email. I know there are muscular women in Australia although not all of them are Amazons in thought as well as body and several of them would consider it freaky to arm-wrestle or wrestle a guy. Whatever the case, I'll be more than happy to receive my next copy of AI and if there are any true Amazon women in Australia who would like to talk about the problems they've faced or face, please send me an email. Thank you. Matthew. b3016957@student.anu.edu.au ************************************************************** Date: Wed, 18 Oct 1995 01:16:59 +0000 From: kthompso@nmu.edu (Kenrick S. Thompson) Subject: Amazons International I am Professor of Sociology at Northern Michigan University, specializing in gender studies. I also teach courses in the area of deviant behavior (note that sociologists define deviant behavior as "socially disvalued behavior," which implies that society frequently defines a variety of behaviors and statuses as undesirable). Over the past several years, I have become increasingly interested in women's participation in non-traditional athletic activities (i.e., those traditionally associated with men). Weightlifting, bodybuilding, and other strength-related pursuits are examples of such activities. There is an interesting combination of gender-related and deviant behavior-related concerns here. To wit: women who engage in these nontraditional activities are likely to be stigmatized, at least among those who view these pursuits as inappropriate for women. Of course, society has changed quite a bit over the past few decades; I can remember a female member of my seventh-grade class (circa 1957) who possessed extremely muscular arms -- this muscularity was not explained by any particular effort on her part, but, rather, she simply had well-defined biceps. This seventh-grader was thoroughly capable of defeating ALL of the male members of the class in armwrestling, but she did so at considerable cost: Ultimately, because of the negative stigma encountered, she ultimately refused to engage in armwrestling and actually started to wear long-sleeved blouses in order to conceal her muscular arms. Today, this seventh-grader would be more likely to receive more positive comments, but depending upon her peers, she could still be stigmatized and might be regarded as "less desirable" by some boys her age. In any event, the interweaving of gender issues and deviance explains my obvious interests in Amazons International. I am looking forward to participating and, once more, I appreciate the subscription. Dr. Kenrick S. Thompson kthompson@nmu.edu ************************************************************** [I'm forwarding the request below; if you reply to it, please give AI as your source. -- Ed.] From: OutlawGal -- Kate Bornstein <1001ways@eor.com> Subject: Outlaw in Labor: Call for Submissions Howdy... Kate Bornstein here. Could you please (1) respond to this thang as you can, and then (2) post or publish or otherwise forward and/or pass on the following call for submissions? I really would like this to go as far and as wide as possible. My name is Kate Bornstein, and this is a call for submissions for an upcoming book I'm working on, called "My Gender Workbook." It's a follow-up to my first book, "Gender Outlaw." It should be out from Routledge some time in the fall of 1996, with illustrations by Diane DiMassa, creator of "Hothead Paison: Homicidal Lesbian Terrorist." Lookin' to make it a fun piece of work. The book will contain a section which, hopefully, will weave through the entire book. This section will be called "1001 Ways To Live Without Gender, By People Who Do." So, I'm looking for a *lot* of outlaws and in-laws to respond to the following questions: 1) Do you consider that you break any rules or laws or conventions of gender? If so, which ones? How do you do that? 2) Have you ever had to, or do you now have to overcome any fear regarding breaking gender conventions? Which fear(s)? How do you overcome that? 3) Do you consider that you live, or have lived either all or part of your life without gender? Could you describe how that works for you? Please feel free to write as many responses as you like, to one, two, or all three of these questions. Answers can be humorous, serious, or in any vein whatesover. They can be poetry, cartoons, slogans, or they can be more questions. The only thing I'm asking is that they be *short* because I want to include as many people's voices as possible. Sadly, there's no payment available for these, but I'll be *very* glad to credit your words as you like. Please do include your name and a way to contact you (email, fax or snailmail addresses, please) to get permission in writing from you to publish your words. Deadline for submission is October 31st (Halloween), 1995. [This deadline has been prolonged -- Thomas] You can get your responses to me in any number of ways: 1) e-mail them to: 1001ways@eor.com 2) fax them to 206-860-5030 3) snail mail them to: 1001 Ways 1202 East Pike Street, #991 Seattle, WA 98122, USA Finally, if you have any contact with any lesbian, gay, bisexual, transwhatever, SM, sex worker, feminist, radical faerie, new male, queer or radical zines or newsletters, bulletin boards, BBSes, newsgroups, mailstrings, phonetrees, websites, comix, whatevah: please pass this request along! Thanks *very* much. Sincerely, Kate Bornstein ************************************************************** Date: Tue, 17 Oct 1995 16:04:29 -0400 From: KingDice@aol.com Subject: Bio and Women's Kickboxing My name is King Dice (that's my AOL screen-name, by the way). Male, 27 years old, 5'10", 160#, writer, musician, video-artist and full-time admirer and fan of strong, powerful women, especially those involved in kickboxing. In order to illustrate specifically to AI (and to remind myself) why I am fascinated by women who practice such a combative sport, I settled into my chair to watch a tape of US Kickboxing Champion Kathy Long in the ring with contender Denise Taylor. And I became aware of a significant set of traits in Kathy Long that I can now ennumerate: 1. She is in excellent physical shape, but beyond that, seems to inhabit her body with a delight and confidence that is rarely seen in any other athlete. It is a confidence that comes with the expression of aggression, of extreme physical release, and of pushing personal barriers. 2. Her confidence is not faked, or inhuman. She is dead serious when she is delivering a devastating roundhouse kick, but off the ring she smiles, grimaces comically, and jokes with her corner-people. Unlike other organized sports, where the "attitude" seems to have become a crutch and a lifestyle, Kathy is a fighter and a woman, and the shock comes with accepting (or, in my case, revelling in) the fact that these are not mutually exclusive, and one complements the other perfectly. 3. On more than one occasion, I have seen Kathy, and a number of other female kickboxers (Cheryl Wheeler, Debbie Page, Lisa Smith) deliver a slow, controlled kick to a nearby camera, so the effect is of a woman driving the sole of her foot into "the face" of the viewer. In almost all cases, the athlete in question is smiling. I rarely see a male kickboxer do this, and if so, is basically reiterating his "badass" attitude to one and all, frowning intently or (in one pathetic case) pouting "sensually" like Mick Jagger. My theory is that Kathy Long, and other female kickboxers, are fully aware of the sociological impact of what they are doing, and delight in the "accidental subversiveness" of being female fighters. I find this particularly appealing, because it is so effective. The unspoken message is "Yes, I am a woman. No, I do not need to lose my femininity to be strong and powerful. And yet, do you know what this foot could do to you?" 4. Although most kickboxers begin from a formal martial arts training, wherein discipline and introspection are essential tools towards mastery, by the time a female fighter has strapped a pair of boxing gloves on her fists and protective pads on her feet, and is in the squared circle ready for several rounds of intense punishment, a major taboo has been effectively shattered along the way. Most women are encouraged to practice a martial art for self-defense purposes, to help compensate somehow for society's need to maintain women vulnerable and victimized. A female kickboxer has emerged on the other side of this set of circumstances. Now she is the aggressor, the predator, the pain strategist, in Kathy Long's words, "looking for a knockout". No man motivates this desire to overcome an opponent by crushing an abdomen with repeated kicks. A man did not cause her to deliver a perfect spinning backfist right onto the side of her opponent's head. It is by her own drive, her own fighting spirit, her own love of the challenge and the endurance of the body that is her own that this happens. And my only response is awed admiration. And every time I see Kathy Long slowly raise her foot towards the camera, and smile with a somewhat menacing playfulness, I think I understand. And I find myself smiling back. Thanks to all for creating and supporting this forum. Any feedback or comments are obviously welcome. King Dice -------------------------------------------------- "I like you well enough, as a man", she said, "but I will like you better when you become an ottoman". And she removed her shoes. ********************************************************** * Amazons International * * Thomas Gramstad, editor: thomas@math.uio.no * * Administravia: amazons-request@ifi.uio.no * * Submissions: amazons@math.uio.no * ********************************************************** "A Hard Woman is Good to Find" -- The Valkyries