Amazons International # 49 ************************** Contents: Words from editor: Amazonian Future? Luke: Poetry; Amazon Lifeguard Ron B: Bio & reply to Osprey, # 45 Thomas: Interviewed by Wendy Aron Date of Transmission: 30.10.95 ************************************************************** Words from editor: Amazonian Future Visions When I started AI back in 1991, it was from a basis of 10 Internet pen friends; I thought that when I mailed a message announcing the newsletter various places on the net, I might get another 10 subscribers in, like, a couple of months, maybe. But the growth was rather large from the start, and the last year it has exploded. Now I'm looking at 1500, maybe soon 2000 subscribers. This raises some promising and intriguing, and also some disturbing questions and perpectives. One is the question of what AI is to be. I imagined it as, and have run it as, a special interest group for some special people, on my spare time. Judging by the flood that is now exploding my mailbox, I'm facing the start of something like a mass movement of thousands of people. How will going from a small intimate group to a mass movement affect AI? To what extent does the benefits people have received from AI depend upon AI being a small intimate group? How may these benefits be maintained and developed in a bigger forum? What additional benefits will be available in a big forum supported by a growing movement? The way it looks to me, projecting from current trends, if the current increase in interest continues, is that somewhere down the line, the possibility of establishing a formal organization will present itself -- indeed, maybe force itself -- if AI is to continue to exist and grow. By a formal organization I mean an office, with its own computer equipment and Internet connection, a secretary and a paper version of AI in addition to the electronic one -- launching The Amazon Institute. Organized as a foundation, supported by memberships and donations. I imagine a conglomerate of a network, library and ideological movement/think-tank. Of course all this is a bit down the road, and maybe a bit up into the air, but I don't think it's totally off the wall or completely gaga... Another alternative is to specialize or narrow down AI somehow, and remain small -- specializations like a women's bodybuilder forum, or Amazons in history, or wrestling, or gender roles, or women in the martial arts, or... But I don't want to do that. I want AI to remain the broad umbrella that encompasses all the different aspects. And that probably implies a continued big growth. I'd be happy to receive your comments and views about these issues. ************************************************************** From: Luke Williams Subject: Poetry; Amazon Lifeguard Hello! As a Southern California ocean lifeguard, I have seen both ends of the spectrum of femininity. People are attracted to power when they are comfortable with themselves. When I came across a listing for "Amazons," it really caught my eye. An eagle perched in a tower The perfect blend of grace...and power Her senses sharpened like a spear She saw the danger, smelled his fear His panic was real and pronounced Off Her throne the Goddess pounced Gathering up Her strength maternal She pulled him from the sea eternal With Her courage and nothing more She returns him to the welcome shore [asked about his inspiration, Luke tells: The inspiration came when I saw my ocean lifeguard co-worker, Diana Driessen rescue a small boy. Watching through my binoculars, I could see each muscle group coming into play as she sprinted across the sand. (It reminded me of seeing a racehorce in slow motion.) Her confidence, will and strength radiated in all directions. Diana stands at about 5'10", and I would not venture a guess as to how much she weighs.] ************************************************************** Date: Wed, 18 Oct 1995 15:27:20 -0400 From: RBKugel@aol.com Subject: Reply to Osprey's Challenge in AI # 45 & bio > Prove you are not threatened by her or any other Amazon, > because you are secure enough to not have an ego problem > with it. Are you proud enough of her to tell the guys > about her capabilities? Do you encourage her to develop > her capabilities, even if she might exceed yours? Do you > worry about such comparisons? I'm not sure that being willing to publicly express one's fantasy about strong women is *less* telling than living with one... but as I do both, I'll take your challenge, Osprey :) My name is Ron. I'm 6' tall (I'm not sure why all the men mention their height, but since it seems common custom..). My wife's name is Dawn. We are 41 and 39 respectively. We have been married for 19 years. We have three children, a son and two daughters (mentioned in chronological order of course). Dawn and I have had a life long battle with weight that we appear to be winning (for the second time). Dawn, in my estimation, is a remarkable woman, and my personal role model. I am not trying to be grand. If I could be anyone else other than myself, I would choose to be her. (She doesn't know I'm writing this but I'm confident that she wouldn't be embarrassed by it too much either.) I was disabled for several years, and she kept us afloat. I've often heard that men can be threatened by such a situation. I was grateful that I had wed such a strong individual. If not for her fortitude, our family would have been in dire straights. At the risk of sounding crass, Dawn has proven to be able to *become with child* with apparent effortlessness. For all the definitions of strength in a woman, this is for me, the most primal. To conceive life at will...?! I know it is not so easy for some, my own mother included, and perhaps that is why I respect this ultimate strength most of all. It is the only power that is uniquely female. As for her more usual amazonian strengths... In her own way, she is quite a physical specimen. Most would undoubtedly dismiss her as too short (5'3") or too fat (I won't say), but they would be dismissing a great deal. Even at astoundingly heavy weights, her limbs, rear and hips remained solid, and her figure, intact. One muscle group that has always seemed to define her physique for me is her trapezius muscles. The first time I saw them bare I was reminded of a bull. They seemed so large for a girl that it took me a few minutes to become comfortable with her appearance... and I LIKED muscles! Her strength has always been greater than mine (though I haven't tested my strength against anyone else in a couple of decades). When we were young, we used to have fun wrestling and arm wrestling. Even then, she had enough strength to toy with me a bit before handing me my usual defeat. Her physical power seem to have increased dramatically after her third pregnancy. Things she couldn't do before, she now does with ease. For instance: Although her hand is smaller than mine, she can crush my hand in her's, rolling my knuckles around in her fist like marbles. She can open any jar or any bottle. In fact the kids always go right to her if they can't open something. Her biceps, which used to be evident only when she lifted weights regularly, are now a visable and permanent part of her appearance, and can be called up on demand. She always had powerful legs, and retains that large hill to her hamstrings as well as her life-long possession of big calf muscles. But most dramatically, her midsection is impervious to any sort of attack I can muster. I simply am unable to bring the slightest wince to her face, no matter how hard I hit her, or how many times she permits me to. This has pleased her quite a bit, since when in school, she had a girl friend whom she greatly admired, who used to tease the boys and teachers alike, by 'taking their best shot' in her stomach. In fact, Dawn likes this aspect of her physical strength so much that she's begun working her abdominal muscles, even though no one can see them, just to make sure she never loses it. I have to admit that I wasn't all that pleased when I found out that my IQ score was less than her 135. Well... its only 5 points and IQ scores don't mean anything anyway! ;) Although pushing 40, she still wears her thick brown hair 'long', or in two heavy braids. I see her walking into work sometimes with her co-workers, who are her age or better; their hair in short business-like coifs. Perhaps their own statement that they are noone's plaything. But I admire Dawn's refusal to modify her hair style to accommodate the norms of her office, or to kowtow to the tastes of her peers. There is an implicit arrogance about it. It doesn't attempt to apologize for the passage of time, and neither does my wife. One thing I do feel a little threatened by is Dawn's ability to 'drink me under the table'. It's funny how some stupid thing like that can be a source of pride. It used to be a test of masculinity among the guys when I was younger. The only thing that consoles me is that *none* of us macho men would have been able to keep up with her. Neither of us are drinkers any more, but on the occasions when we have done so, she beats me 2+/1. It's ironic that out of all the things she does better than I, that seems to be the most emasculating. Luckily, the occasion doesn't present itself very often :) As for self control and discipline, she and I were each able to lose 100 lbs. The months and months of dieting and exercise it took made me respect what a colossal effort it is. Due to other circumstances, we both regained a significant portion of that weight. We are now trying to loose it again. What an inherently discouraging thing it is to have lost such a great amount of weight and to have to lose it all over again! But even here, she emerges as my role model. She astounds me with yet another display of her power in the verve and dedication with which she approaches this task. If I can do as she does, I know I'll succeed as she will. One of the most interesting things is that her confidence in herself has waxed over the years. She sees a reflection and sisterhood in females who exhibit great strengths. She's never threatened anymore, by a woman who is stronger, or seems to have a superior quality, since she sees those things in herself in so many different areas. I can almost understand this, but I will most likely never feel that sort of inner power that she seems to know so well. We have even gone to Women's Strength Extravaganzas together, and she has insisted we take our daughters along, so that they can see other women doing remarkable things. I don't know if I'd call Dawn an Amazon. I definitely prefer the word 'Woman' because she has redefined it for me. Because of her, 'Woman' has become a sacred word in my dictionary. R B Kugel ************************************************************** From: Thomas Subject: Interview by Wendy Aaron [Back in February/March I was interviewed by Wendy Aaron by E-mail, who told me that she was a journalist for the Ft. Lauderdale Sun Sentinal in Florida. She told me that the interview would be published in April, and that she'd send me a copy of the printed interview. Then she told me it had been delayed until May; and then she went incommunicado, though her account still exists. Some time before summer I wrote her a message where I said that I interpreted her silence to mean that her article had been refused, and I'd like to discuss other avenues of publication with her; and that if she didn't reply to my letter, I would interpret that to mean that I'm free to use and publish the interview as I see fit. I did not receive a reply. Old readers of AI will probably recognize some of the themes and formulations; but then there are always new additions and angles. Also, I've updated several parts of the interview, to include recent developments. -- Thomas] > What is an Amazon? Below are what I consider some typical and important Amazon characteristics. However, I do not wish to create another stereotype! These are just a few observations that trigger "Amazon" in my mind, they are not dogma or party line... -- athletically built; strong, muscular (and proud of it) -- courageous, self-assertive, capable of independent decision-making and action -- a particular "heavy" or unconsciously self-confident way of walking, stressing certainty and physical strength ("cat-like") -- she "owns and occupies" her physical space through her body language -- she doesn't "shrink" herself by trying to appear small or by trying not to occupy her space -- preference for "rough", practical clothing (e.g. sportswear, jeans, leather jackets) -- a "strong" face, direct and vivid eyes (hard to be specific here, but it's the opposite of the kind of ethereal, non-emotional, remote, passive, away-from-this-world-looking expression that one may find in some artworks that are considered to express "femininity"). Having a "defined" angular face may add to the 'Amazon image'. -- her looks is not the most important part of her self-concept (even if she happens to be photo-model beautiful) -- no or little make-up/fake-up -- a direct and open personality; no unsincere behavior (such as pretensions, coquettishness, manipulations etc.). > What is Amazons International? Amazons International is an electronic magazine for and about Amazons (physically and psychologically strong, assertive women who are not afraid to break free from traditional ideas about gender roles, femininity and the female physique) and their friends and lovers. Amazons International is dedicated to the image of the female hero in fiction and in fact, as it is expressed in art and literature, in the physiques and feats of female athletes, in sexual values and practices, and provides information, discussion and a supportive environment for these values and issues. > When and why did you found Amazons International? > > What is the purpose of Amazons International? I founded Amazons International in April 1991. I saw a need for a forum whose purpose is to explore the many aspects and forms of expression of what might be called heroic womanhood -- that is, a vision of females at their best; as strong, independent, accomplished and whole human beings in growth. I wanted a forum that would focus on concretizations of this theme, and give the message that it is this ideal that is the basis for things like self-actualization, fulfillment and attractivity -- counteracting the destructive culture-wide message that women have to be small, weak, helpless, submissive and stupid in order to be "feminine", attractive etc. I perceive the Amazon as the concrete expression of this ideal. We are talking about physically and psychologically strong, assertive women who are not afraid to break free from traditional ideas about gender roles, relationships and femininity or "feminine interests and behavior". (Or, even if they are afraid, who still want to go through with it.) Amazons International will encourage such developments by serving and nurturing a network of people sharing values and insights in this area. So I have three broad, general goals for Amazons International: FUN, LEARNING and MORAL SUPPORT. Fun: How fun it is to be or to know an Amazon! Learning: All the things you can do or be as an Amazon or as a friend of one! Moral support: There is nothing wrong and everything right about being a strong and active female who doesn't like or fit in with the femininity as weakness, wimpiness and subordination thing. > What sparked your interest in Amazons? Well, I'm basically born this way. Or maybe not, but I can't remember ever having been anything else. I can remember that we were lucky enough to have several tomboys in my neighborhood as a kid, and my friendship with them no doubt has played a role in how I perceive women. Only much later I began to see that big parts of the world was different, restricted by gender stereotype nonsense, and that people who don't conform are punished. As I started to see a pattern in some confusing events, the whole issue of gender stereotypes, Amazons etc. came into focus for me. The first time I saw a female bodybuilder, a lot of my ideas and values clicked together into place. And when I incredulously heard some of the reactions from gender stereotyped people to women's bodybuilding, I knew that I'd stumbled into something that needed a careful investigation. > Do you find it odd that a man is running the > organization? Why? or Why not? No, I don't find that odd at all. I'm in charge of it because I created it, and the vision of strong and heroic women can appeal to, and add value to the life of, men and women alike. Hence, it is just as important to men as to women, just as gender stereotypes are just as damaging to men as they are to women. As I see it, males and females have the potential for _all_ psychological characteristics in common -- there is no inherent "masculinity" or "femininity" determined by biology. All psychological characteristics are a part of our common human condition. Amazons International is working for recognition, acceptance and expression of this truth, and the vision of heroic womanhood, on a cultural as well as an individual scale. Personally, I'm just as much opposed to 'femininity feminists' as I am to male chauvinist pigs. They are just flip sides of the same counterfeit coin, namely the idea that men and women are, or ought to be, different; different by nature, different in value and stature. > What kinds of contributions do you get to the magazine > (e.g., fiction, poetry, essays?) What do most of the > articles focus on? Mostly biographies, i.e., personal notes where people tell about their own take on the Amazon issue -- their own perspective, experiences and values. Also some fiction, some poetry, some news items and some comments to others/debate. I'm rather picky about the fiction as well as the news items. My goal in editing is that one issue of AI should be just as interesting to read the tenth time as the first time, and as interesting to read for the first time ten years after its publication as it is on the day of its publication. > How many articles do you have per issue? I prefer to keep the size of any issue between 20 and 30 k. So it can be one article that size, 2 half that size, 10 small ones adding up to that size, etc., depending on the submissions at hand. However, I usually prefer longer, more essay-like and carefully written submissions, rather than the short outbursts that are so common in for example usenet newsgroups. So it's usually 3-4 submissions an issue. > What articles or article are you most proud of and why? Well, that's a hard question. But I often put the best article of a given issue at the top, and I also want a good article to finish the issue. But I also like adjacent articles to be different from each other, and may spice up the middle. I'll leave it at that... > How many subscribers do you have? where are they from? I have about 1500 subscribers, from all continents. 70 % are Americans, 20 % Europeans. There is an explosion of new subscription requests; I've noticed that there is a growing number of subscribers from Asia, including Korea, China, Hong Kong and Japan -- and also from the Eastern European countries. I'm looking forward to people from these cultures putting their stamp on Amazons International. ********************************************************** * Amazons International * * Thomas Gramstad, editor: thomas@math.uio.no * * Administravia: amazons-request@ifi.uio.no * * Submissions: amazons@math.uio.no * ********************************************************** "A Hard Woman is Good to Find" -- The Valkyries