Amazons International # 42 ************************** Contents: Mariah B.N.: The Stronger Women Get... Freeman: BBC Women's Boxing Special Roy: Amazons I have known--and loved Patrick: New list of references Sarah L.: Female wrestling Bill V.: Female boxing Patrick: Help with usenet feed (aaa)? Dan F.: Bio -- Dan & Maureen Date of Transmission: 03.06.94 ************************************************************** Date: Thu, 2 Jun 1994 12:40:27 -0400 From: mbnelson@cap.gwu.edu (Mariah Burton Nelson) Subject: The Stronger Women Get, The More Men Love Football Hi Friends. I'm new to the Amazons list but a long-time self-identified and other-identified Amazon. As a 6'2" former basket-ball player and longtime feminist, Amazon is a label I've reclaimed after hearing it used against me a few too many times. At the risk of this message being perceived as advertising, I'm writing to let you know that I've written a book that may interest you, and will be reading/signing in several major cities in the U.S. soon. The book is called _The Stronger Women Get, The More Men Love Football_. In it, I contend that for women, sports are inherently a feminist activity because they teach us to find pleasure and power in our bodies, and to bond with other women. Many men feel threatened by women's growing athletic, economic, and political strength, and take refuge in watching "manly" sports like football and boxing and ice hockey, where men are violent and dominant and seemingly physically superior to women, and where women still stand on the sidelines and cheer, showing off their underwear. I discuss Amazons, including some brief history and how the word is currently used in a derogatory way toward big strong athletes. Chapters include: Boys Will Be Boys and Girls Will Not (the Amazon chapter); Scoring: What's Sex Got to Do with It?; Men in Tight Pants Embracing; Sexual Assault as a Spectator Sport; My Coach Says He Loves Me; The Looker Room; and others. My first book, *Are We Winning Yet?* (about women athletes) received the Amateur Athletic Foundation's Book Award in 1992. Book signings scheduled (call store to confirm times): Boston: June 16, Brentano's Chestnut Hill Mall, 1:30-2:30 New York: June 17, Brentano's Fifth Ave, 12:30-1:30 Chicago: June 22, Women and CHildren First, 7:30-9 Minneapolis: June 23, Barnes and Nobles at Nickolett Mall (1:00-2:00) and Calhoun Village (6:30-7:30) Seattle: June 27, Elliot Bay Books, 5:30-6:30 San Francisco, June 28, Modern Times 7:30-8:30 Baltimore: July 31, 31st St. bookstore (call for time) Washington, D.C., Houston, Dallas, and maybe Austin -- check local listings -- not yet scheduled -- or e-mail me personally and I'll let you know if something does get scheduled. Please introduce yourself if you come! --Mariah Burton Nelson [I'll be reviewing the book in a future issue of AI; of course anyone else is welcome to submit messages about the book too. I'd also like to mention that Mariah Burton Nelson is a public speaker; she speaks at colleges and conferences several times each month. If you are interested in inviting her to speak, her lecture agent, Tony Colao, may be contacted at 800/453-2887; ask for a brochure. -- Ed.] ************************************************************** Date: 10 May 94 19:23:36 EDT From: freeman ford <73132.3312@CompuServe.COM> Subject: BBC Women's Boxing Special Hi Thomas, There may be some interest among your AI group in a copy of a tape that I made of a documentarty titled, . It ran on BBC 4 May tenth and was well balanced, avoided the prurient and managed to go the entire hour without one word of commentary but rather exclusively used interviews, boxing footage, training coverage, etc. If there is sufficient interest perhaps I can get some copies made and send them out at cost. It would have to wait a few months since I will remain in London into June and will not be back in San Francisco until July. Freeman ************************************************************** Date: Mon, 16 May 1994 21:33:49 -0400 (EDT) From: Roy Subject: Amazons I have known--and sometimes loved I joined Amazons International only a few days ago and, already, the postings I have read have caused my mind to journey back in time and reconsider some of the Amazons of my past. Of course, I did not know then that they were Amazons. I knew they were exciting in a way that troubled me. I was raised in a small town in the South at a time not so long ago where the gender roles were rigidly defined. No one ever told me when I was a teenager in the 1960's that boys were supposed to spend all their time coming up with ways to get IT and girls were supposed to deny, deny, deny that they enjoyed anything about it. No one had to tell me or most of the other teenagers that. It was baked into our brains with the summer sun. But there was one girl, Nina, who did not buy that denial crap. Sure, she liked IT, she said. She liked being touched and she liked touching too and, if the feeling was right -- Nina suffered a lot for a teenaged pro-sex stand. She was called names. But I found her fascinating. I worshipped her from a distance, too frightened to get really close to her. There was something about Nina that made you think she was going to suck you into a whirlwind that was her life. But, of course, another part of me wished to be sucked into that tempest, wished to clutch her and hang on for dear life, for I knew in my heart that Nina would be able to give me a thrilling ride--more thrilling than any of the prom queens or cheerleaders. But, like a fool, I never approached her. And now how I regret it. I am over 40 now and I am beginning to realize that you never regret the things you did in your past as much as you regret the things you didn't do. Another regret was Ann, a girl I knew in college. She was not what most men would think of as an Amazon. She was actually small and a little frail. But the strength that came from inside her was the strength of creativity. Ann wrote poetry--poetry with rhyme and rhythm--poetry that was neo-classical in its form and was so good that, as editor of the college literary magazine, I hesitated to publish it because it was too good and I was almost sure that she had purloined it from some other publication. But her room-mate swore that she watched Ann compose the stuff, and I believed her room-mate and published the poetry. Ann also suffered in her way. The truth is that most people at the college thought her strange. Freaky, one guy called her. But I see now that, more than anything else, Ann wanted to be touched. Yet she was not willing to compromise and play the feminine game in order to win the ardor of some lackluster male. When last I heard of her, she was still writing. In fact, she was writing sword-and-sorcery stories under a male pseudonym. Down deep, she probably identifies with the hero. Maybe she's out there. Maybe she'll read this. If she does, I want her to know that I still think of her. In fact, she haunts me because I now can see her strength. There are other Amazons buried deep in my past and one day I may tell all of you about them too. But, for now, these two will do. Nina and Ann. There is a slight chance that they even knew each other, since both of them went to the same college for a short, overlapping time. I like to think of them now as naked woman warriors, riding bareback on sleek horses across the plains. ************************************************************** Date: 06 May 94 18:04:11 EDT From: Paul Robinson <72162.261@CompuServe.COM> Subject: New List of References (Re: AI # 40, sources) What a marvelous reference list to share! Thank you. I have an "Oldie But Goodie" listing of various paperback novels that I have discovered over the years that you may be interested in having . . . and passing along to our AI Community. Because of my own predilection focus, most of these novels contain descriptive passages that have to do with muscularity in women, ways of using physical strength, and most especially very graphic descriptions of "erotic combat" (sometimes between women, most often between men and women.) Some of these "classics" date back to the 50's, some even earlier. Hopefully, all of these various reference lists will be added to by the AI subscribers. REFERENCE LISTING OF PAPERBACK BOOKS FEATURING AMAZONS, MUSCULAR WOMEN, WRESTLING, ETC. "The Wayward Ones" by Sara Harris Signet 1146 "Lay Down and Die" by Mark Reed Falcon 26 "Nonce" by Michael Braudon Avon 506 "The Woman Aroused" by Ed Lacy Avon 342 "Strip for Violence" by Ed Lacy Eton E-123 "Handsome" by Theodore Pratt Gold Medal S-432 "Knife at My Back" by Adam Knight Signet 1022 "Murder For Madam" by Adam Knight Signet 920 "Mistress Glory" by Susan Morely Signet 748 "The Human Beast" by Emile Zola Dell 608 "The Blonde Body" by Michael Morgan Lion 11 "Cassidy's Girl" by David Goodis Gold Medal 189 "Behold This Woman" by David Goodis Bantam 407 "Cellar Club" by Albert L. Quandt Original novels 703 "Boy Crazy" by Albert L. Quandt Original novels 735 "Pirate Wench" by Frank Shay Pyramid Giant G75 "Millie's Daughter" by Donald H. Clark Avon 351 "Millie" by Donald Henderson Clark Avon 480 "A Lady Named Lou" by Donald H. Clark Avon 483 "Nina" by Donald Henderson Clark Avon 397 "To A God Unknown" by John Steinbeck Dell 358 "Pierre's Woman" by Jacques de Bout Pyramid 133 "Carnival of Passion" by Val Munroe Rainbow 115 "Tender Hearted Harlot" by Val Munroe Rainbow 125 "The Brass Cupcake" by John D. MacDonald Gold Medal 124 "The Harem" by Louis Charles Royer Dell 567 "Back Country Woman" by Evans Wall Intimate novel 128 "Strange Passions" by Florence Stonebraker Corydon Book 37 "Love Fetish" by Evan Wall Fiesta Novel #3 "Hands Up" by Albert M. Treynor Adventure novel 7 "Gunman From Tulluco" by Gordon Young Thrilling Novels "Tomboy" by Hall Ellison Bantam 945 "Beautiful Humbug" by Wm. H. Fielding Gold Medal 430 "Dream of Innocence" by Turnkey Walker Pocket Library 655 "All The Way Home" by Walter Freeman Signet 1186 "Stiffs Don't Vote" by Goeffrey Howes Bantam 117 "Fear Comes Calling" by Aylwin Lee Martin Gold Medal 214 "Bayou Girl" by John B. Thompson Uni Book 77 "Swamp Hoyden" by Jack Woodford Uni Book 71 "Unconventional" by Jack Woodford "Age of Consent" by Norman Lindsay Pocket Book 539 "Case of the Foster Father" by Virginia Perdue Mercury Mystery "The Sheltering Night" by Steve Fisher Gold Medal 219 "Woman Soldier" by Arnold Rodin Gold Medal 232 "Love Me Now" by John MacPartland Gold Medal 863 "Calamity Jane" by Ethel Hueston Avon 362 "Amazon Lover" by John Madison Dell 921 "Vigilante" by Richard Summers Dell 471 "Slave Girl" by Tom Roan Falcon Book #31 "Rogue Queen" by L. Sprague de Camp Dell 600 "The Green Millenniom" by Fritz Leiber Lion Library 117 "Before I Wake" by Brett Halliday Dell 829 "There's No Home" by Alexander Baron Signet 872 "Border Woman" by Gregory Mason/R. Carroll Lion 59 "Day Into Night" by David Westheimer Popular Library 396 "Wrestle Me To Death" by Martha Gleason Ergon 36 "The Fear and The Guilt" by Wilene Shaw Ace S-80 "Owls Don't Blink" by A.A. Fair Dell 211 "Gold Comes in Bricks" by A.A. Fair Dell 84 "Double or Quits" by A.A. Fair Dell 160 ************************************************************** Date: Thu, 02 Jun 94 13:43:14 From: sarah.larsson@oubbs.telecom.uoknor.edu Subject: Female wrestling I have always been interested in female wrestling (female vs. female). I have a few questions: * Does anyone know of any places that carry videos and pictures? * Do you know of any FTP sites, GOPHER sites, TELNET sites, stores, mail-order companies? * Also, does anyone know or is anyone interested in services to find wrestling partners? Please send any responses to: Sarah Larsson Sarah.Larsson@oubbs.telecom.uoknor.edu [Send to me/AI too. I'll include it in the FAQ. -- Ed.] ************************************************************** Date: Sat, 16 Apr 94 12:25:59 EDT From: wvasilion@VNET.IBM.COM Subject: Female boxing Hi I thought I would write more about Chris Kreuz, the boxing champion. I saw two of her fights, and she can fight. There is no round house punches with her, or powder puff punches, as she trained first with her husband to be, then with other men in the kickboxing gym she works out at now. She is very good as a boxer, and I hope she gets more exposure. I did notice the Dallas Malloy story, and also I looked up a Seattle paper at the Library of Congress when I was there April 5. It had a story about the fight between her and Poynter, her 21 year old opponent. I felt from reading the story that Poynter took the idea seriously but not the fight, that she was going to fight Dallas to help move women's boxing along. Well, the paper said that Dallas took it much more seriously than Poynter, and it showed. Dallas reportedly rocked Poynter in the second round, but did not knock her out, though later Dallas wished she had. Dallas next time will go for a knockout. I also read where there was a 13 year old who fought a 15 year old girl, actually women, because anyone that gets in a ring and fights is a woman in my book. The thirteen year old won, the fight, but no mention was made of how good she was or was not. I remember seeing a 13 year friend's daughter take on a 30 year old woman in a sparring match, and the 13 year was really making the older woman backpedal around the mats, as this happened in a judo dojo between lessons. I find it interesting to Ahab (Re: AI # 38 and 39), that more is written by men about kickboxing for women, than is written by the women themselves about the experience. I would like to hear from some of the women who have competed about what it is like for them to enter the ring, and also their thoughts on whether fighting a younger opponent is a mental distraction or does age not enter into their training to fight a younger opponent? For those who feel an Amazon is 6'1" or 6'2" I disagree, as it is the person's feeling for themselves that make them an Amazon, same as with a man, who may be 5'2" but can fight with the best of the tall men. Also just because a man is tall does not make him a gladiator. He may be meek and mild, or dependent on others with no independent spirit such as Amazons have. I feel Amazons have a spirit, not a size to them. Ahab, I don't think the world will look badly at women's hockey because though the men play hard with the body checking, the culture has not been used to seeing men fighting in hockey till recently, so they can still picture women skating and putting the puck in the net. I know a couple of Chicago area female teams have been in the papers, but they get so little coverage it is stupid. In fact, womens sports in general still don't get a big play unless it is high school basketball or volleyball. Then a few pictures and that is it. A couple of years ago, there was the story of the teenager in highschool who wrestled her aerobics instructor because no boys on the wrestling program would wrestle her. Well, she was gaining control of the woman in the warmup session when she heard the woman's bones cracking. It appears that she put such pressure on her ribs that she bruised them. That is some wrestler, and the photo of the teen is a small petite person. This was in Wisconsin, so I wonder what ever happened to her. I have read somewhere that there is a women's collegiate style wrestling federation somewhere in the united states?? If any one can give me the address I would appreciate it. Going back to Chris Kreuz Christopher, her married name now, her team fought in the golden gloves here in Chicago. One 23 or 25 year old fought a 17 year old, and knocked the younger girl's teeth guard out in the second round and bloodied her mouth. The younger girl looked tough, and was a hard puncher from all acounts, while the 25 looked sweet and pretty, yet she whipped her bad. My point is you never can tell till you get a person in the ring what type of spirit they have, or what physical ability they possess. Well, let's hear from you kickboxing or boxing fans, write me direct if you like............ Thomas keep up the good work on the list. bill wvasilion@vnet.ibm.com ************************************************************** Date: 06 May 94 18:04:11 EDT From: Paul Robinson <72162.261@CompuServe.COM> Subject: Help with getting alt.amazon-women.admirers? This will admit to my total ineptness at Internet connectivity, but I simply cannot find the usenet newsgroup files . . .anywhere! I refuse to use America On Line because of their very stiff add-on premium fees for Hawaii hookup. My Delphi connection hardly ever works, and then right in the middle of trying to type my way around their command key system, I am usually cut off in mid-sentence. And after all that, it appears that usenet articles are not being carried on Delphi. So-oooo, my ONLY connection with the outside world at the moment is CompuServe. And they do not appear to be carrying your usenet group, either. You can't realize how much I crave both interaction and communication with others of like mind and proclivities, but I feel that I am in outer space here in Hawaii. Can YOU get me listed to these groups, via CompuServe, from your end? If not, there are probably others in my same situation, so perhaps one of our Macintosh-using subscribers could let us ALL know how to best connect with your usenet groups, or most importantly to GET FEEDS. Once I am hooked into the usenet groups, waiting for each issue of Amazons International to be published will not be such a frustrating event in my life. [Can somebody help Patrick, and others in a similar situation, for example by setting up a mailing list feed of the alt.amazon-women.admirers newsgroup? -- Ed.] ************************************************************** Date: Fri, 29 Apr 94 17:59:47 PDT From: dan.flak@mccaw.com (Dan Flak) Subject: Bio: Dan and Maureen I'd like to add my 2/100 of a dollar to the thread, "What is an Amazon?" by describing the one I've been associated with for the last 29 years -- my wife, Maureen. I met Maureen in high school when she was still an amazette: all of 14 years old, 6 foot even and still growing. I, on the other hand was 16, 6 foot even and still growing. Unlike my wife whose growth was more or less linear since childhood, my growth was rather "sprouty" (I was 9 inches shorter 9 months previous -- my pituitary glad was about 4 years late figuring out that I had entered puberty, and tried to make up for lost time with a vengeance.) Even at that tender age, I knew what kind of woman I wanted. I wanted to be with one that wouldn't try to dominate me, but would not, in her turn, accept dominance from me. I wanted both a lover and a fighter. I got one. We dated though high school and college, and got married in 1971. Since we've met, we've both put on another inch of height, and several more in girth ;-(. Although my wife fulfills the height requirements for an Amazon she is not physically powerful. I think I can best her in a fair fight (although not without a few scars in the effort). At any rate, I can still outrun her :-). What makes her an Amazon is not her stature, but her attitude. She has: o run her own business employing 70 people o taught in a vocational technical college o presided as president for the county chamber of commerce o chaired several committees for several chambers of commerce o been the community liaison with the local military establishments o been awarded the Distinguished Citizen of the Year by the Military Airlift Command o is on the board of directors for the county Boys and Girls Club o run for the State House of Representatives o lobbied for the National Guard Association of Washington o been selected by Gov. Gardner for the State Fiscal Responsibility Committee o been selected by Sen. Gorton for the Pierce County advisory committee and in her spare time, done gardening and quilting, kept house, read a few romance novels, took flying lessons, and raised two sons. I'm sure I've forgotten a few things. She has been a positive influence and role model for our sons. (incidentally, they are 18 and 21 years old, 6'2" and 6'5" respectively.) We've had the defensive line of my son's football team over our house from time to time. They really are nice boys, but they are every bit teenaged boys and sometime have the macho morals (much more talk than action) and mouths to match. She's not hesitant about putting them in their places when they deserve it. They respect my wife very much, but they also are comfortable around her, because she "thinks more like a man than a mom." They like the idea of having one of "them" (females, that is) they can trust. As a result, they are very demanding about the kind of girls they date, and are much more respectful towards them. They want the best, and treat them like the best. I think they'll marry wisely and well (and wealthy? :-) Maureen is aware that her attitude and altitude is not accepted by men everywhere, and sometimes uses it to her advantage. I've seen her take off for a lobbying session where her intent was to intimidate. It's one of the few times she puts on the high heels, red (or navy blue) business suit, and large hat. She towers over some of the smaller legislators. The last time some of them had to look up to a woman like that, they probably called her "mom." She can also pose her body (and face) in such a way so as to say, "Go ahead, make my day." I've seen that look before, but after 29 years, it doesn't bother me anymore. If we want to play "power games," we do it by arguing. For me, she's more intimidating with her logic than her stature. Usually, we wind up in violent agreement. I've had one of her victims comment to me, "How do you live with such a bitch?" My response, "Oh, I don't know, I seem to be man enough to handle her." It was cruel, I know, but he deserved it. In reality, my wife is not a shrew in need of taming. In fact, she's my best friend. She is also very much a woman. She doesn't deny her femininity and seems to balance high energy, self-confidence and womanhood easily. Personally, I still think she's a knock-out when she's "dressed to the 9's." There's something about a 6 foot-plus frame that adds an extra sexiness to "long and flowing." Maureen also has a fantastic sense of humor -- something you need if you live with me. All in all, we've gone though life supporting and challenging each other. Living with her is like being in a fish tank with a piranha -- as long as I keep moving, I'll stay alive. She keeps life interesting. Things are rarely boring around our house. Well, I can go on and on (and probably have too much already,) but I'll wait until next time. To tell you the truth, I don't know which came first. Am I attracted to Maureen because she is tall (Tall people tend to be more confident, a trait I admire in people in general, but it's not commonly found in women.) or do I find tall women attractive because they remind me of my wife? After 29 years, I'm beyond trying to figure it out. -- Dan Flak -- McCaw Cellular Communications Inc., 5400 Carillon Point, Kirkland, Wa 98033-7397, 206-828-8006, ********************************************************** * Amazons International * * Thomas Gramstad, editor: thomas@smaug.uio.no * * Administravia: amazons-request@math.uio.no * * Submissions: amazons@math.uio.no * ********************************************************** "A Hard Woman is Good to Find" -- The Valkyries