Amazons International # 41 ************************** Contents: Susanne S.: Bio; body and self building Freeman: Bio, book review, responses Dan W.: Female boxing and the media Ray: Bio, female domination Ricky G.: Musings on Amazonness Squeezehrd: Bio, bearhugs, attitudes mADkAT: Bio, Amazon psyche Will H.: Women in combat Dan F.: Cosmopolitan article review Date of Transmission: 03.06.94 ************************************************************** From: Scott Susanne Subject: Bio; body and self building Date: Tue, 05 Apr 94 16:23:00 edt Warning in advance, this is pretty long! Hey everyone, I am glad you are here -- I am glad I am here. I am an artist/commercial crabber living in the tidewater region of Chesapeake Bay. I have many interests including: bodybuilding, birding, horses, dogs, farming, quilting, gardening, lacemaking, windsurfing, cooking, photography, etc....the list goes on a long way -- it's hard to know where to begin to tell others about myself. I am coming out of a very dark period of my life, a terrible and long addiction to drugs and alcohol. I began bodybuilding about three years ago, mostly as something to do to take out the sheer frustration I felt towards life in general. I believe my commitment to bodybuilding is one of the things that saved my life, because there is no way anyone can be serious about building their body and yet put poisons into it. I am ever grateful for this, it took me getting a strong outside before I could even begin to get a strong inside. I learned that to build muscles you have to in effect tear them down, I apply this to my life, if I don't like what I have I've got to tear it apart and reconstruct it too. These are some of the lessons I learned from building my body: to be patient, to create goals that take time and effort to attain. This kind of strength and patience spills over into every other aspect of my life today. Along with my former, twisted life lived many deep fears within me, I was fearful of everything perceived and everything only imagined, so much that I was easily overwhelmed by the most simple things. Life got very crazy for me. One night something happened (the last night I drank, October 9, 1992) so bizarre and scary that I finally decided that I would die of this disease. That was the first step on the journey to becoming a totally new woman. I have changed so much in just the past year and a half that I cannot even begin to tell you -- let me just sum it up and say that a mighty oak springs forth from the tiniest acorn, so much that it becomes an entirely different form, never returning to the old. I never thought that any good thing would ever come out of my past, but now I am beginning to see that it has made me strong. I live on a 226 acre waterfront farm along with my mate, two horses, (I ride long-distance) cats, dogs, chickens, and other birds. I work very hard physically -- painting, commercial fishing, crabbing, and growing vegetables for market. Working on the water is a very male-oriented occupation, and my mate received a lot of grief when I began to accompany him in the boat. Some men barely tolerate me, they actually think women on boats are bad luck, they are a very chauvinistic and superstitious lot. However, they did gain enough respect to shut up at least when they saw me tonging oysters all day in deep water. I guess they think I'm some sort of freak, as their women are the kind that sit around all day -- many of these women don't even have driver's licenses. Lucky for me, I have reached a space where I don't give a damn what anyone else thinks of me!! My goal is to keep on getting bigger and stronger in every way. I am 5'9" tall and right now I weigh about 180. A little of that is bodyfat but I am not worried about cutting up at all, I am feeding these muscles to pack on some more mass. I have never competed but I believe I could, though my lifestyle is so busy that I can't commit totally to what it takes to be successful at this time -- maybe later!! Right now I am promoting my art, not my body. I paint and study mostly in the winter when my other activities slack off, some exciting things are beginning to happen to me artistically. I have been selling all along and am being accepted into some big exhibitions. Where this will go remains to be seen. One thing I do know, is that wherever I am going, what I learn from this group is going to help me. I want to develop that total warrior attitude, always strong of body, spirit and mind. This world is a great place and I have something to add. Thank you all in advance! [This is the kind of stuff that really keeps me going. -- Ed.] ************************************************************** Date: 21 Apr 94 15:18:21 EDT From: freeman ford <73132.3312@CompuServe.COM> Subject: Bio, book review and responses to previous issues I've read most of the back issues but will limit this input to three subjects: _Amazones, Guerrieres, et Gaillardes_ by Pierre Samuel A few AI responses Bio My unused high school French made deciphering _Amazones, Guerrieres et Gaillardes_ pretty hard going. Samuel was a widely published math professor at Princeton. He had moved back to France several years ago when I corresponded with him. Amazones, Guerrieres, et Gaillardes is 319 pages, published in 1975 by Presses Universitaires de Grenoble in Bruxelles. The chapters are: 1. Amazones 2. Folklore du pays des femmes 3. Folklore sur le marriage de la forte fille 4. L'amoureuse musclee dans de folklore 5. Folklore sur les sauvetages et les deguisements 6. Guerrieres, bagarreuses et sportives du folklore 7. Quelques autres themes folkloriques 8. Geantes, ogresses et sorcieres 9. Epopes et romans de chevalerie 10. Guerrieres 11. Gaillardes Some chapters have more than 100 references. It appears to me to be very comprehensive. For example Mildred Burke is cited who did the carnival wrestling circuit in the thirties, forties and fifties and was reputedly undefeated. Burke also trained the two women wrestlers in the movie _All the marbles_ the last scene of which was impressively athletic as well as being pretty erotic. From _One thousand and one Arabian Nights_ Samuel quotes the tale of Sharrikan who one moonlit night came upon a maiden who after wrestling successfully ten young women and one older woman challenges Sharrikan, won easily twice and wrestled into the dawn on the third bout. This tale stuck in my head since it seems a bit out of place from what I know of the Middle-Eastern culture's view of women. I corresponded once with Samuel about translating his book to English. If anyone is interested in doing or having the translation let Thomas know and maybe something can be done. As for reactions to AI, I became aware of AI when I was browsing through the _Different Loving_ book by Brame et al. Getting the initial files was my first experience with the Internet--very humbling. Anyway, a few reactions: AI in selecting for the computer literate starts with a pretty cerebral bunch. If Thomas is Norwegian and English is his second language the clarity, balance and thoughtfulness of his philosophy are all the more impressive. Thomas defines Amazon physicality quite precisely which seems OK to me. As for warrior women references through history, I'm not sure whether this is largely a male construct/fantasy or more based in fact. In either case it seems healthy to me to broaden today's definition of feminism. I see no inconsistency in women remaining feminine while challenging men in activities considered by many to be the last bastion of the male prerogative (whatever that is). It seems to me that there is also an Amazon trait that welcomes physical challenges. Somehow playfulness probably enters in here somewhere especially when competing with men. S&M does not play a part for me. As for me, it seems strange to write anything personal to have it disappear into the electronic maw of the internet since normally things wouldn't be quite so open-ended. Anyway, I suppose my interest in the Amazon culture as Thomas defines it stems from never forming strong opinions of what women can and can't do. By virtue of attending all male institutions from the third grade through Dartmouth and flying in the Navy (VietNam) I am probably pretty well hooked on endorphins (once read a whole book chronicling their discovery by a guy in Scotland distilling hundreds of pounds of animal brains), do many sports such as riding, scuba, tennis sailing, soaring, swimming, and so on reasonably well and skiing somewhat better. Oh, yeah, I run a manufacturing business in the San Francisco area. Okay, now I'll see if I can move this out of Word, over to WINCIM and blast it into the ether. Interesting stuff these forums are not to mention the medium itself. Regards, Freeman ************************************************************** Date: Fri, 18 Feb 1994 13:05:39 -0500 From: dan@cmr.com (Dan Whitty) Subject: Female boxing and the media As my first submission I would like to open a discussion about movies, videos, and TV shows that have featured female boxing. What prompts this is a wonderful music video I just happened to catch on the cable CMT channel (Country Music Television) while cruising with the remote. A gal by the name of Laurie Lewis put her song "Slow Learner" to video and it appears to be a story about a woman who is learning to become a professional boxer. It has some fantasic female boxing footage in it, where the "slow learner" gets knocked to the canvas numerous times by her skilled opponent. The footage appears to be a honest to goodness real boxing match. Not the the fake silly crap videos like "Foxy Boxing" have. To me "Foxy Boxing" is nothing more than stippers bopping each other around with 16oz gloves and faking knockdowns and knockouts. They're not Amazons, they're bimbos. I saw another video called "Battling Amazons" that isn't too bad. The boxing still appears staged but at least they don't do a stiptease before entering the ring, nor does anyone wind up topless or naked. "Tomboy" had a hot scene where the heroine of the movie got the man of her dreams to box with her in a gym and she finally seduced him after she faked getting KO'd by one of his punches. I liked the way it showed how an Amazon woman doesn't have to resort to teasing a man in some frilly little outfit to seduce him. It also demonstated how a woman can be in control and *still* be sexy. As far as television goes, there isn't much in the way of female boxing. Best thing I saw was a feature on Showtime onetime where they did a story on female professional boxers. They did a life background and followed the training of a woman from Las Vegas who had the misfortune to box against Gracella Casillas (sp?). Needless to say, she got whooped. Lately though all I've seen is a little thing on Inside Edition where Downtown Julie Brown interviewed some women who used boxing as a form of exercise. The crew and Downtown Julie Brown made a mockery of the whole thing, instead of showing it as a good alternative to some women who aren't into jazzercise and aerobics. In closing, I think media has a long ways to go in properly representing women in combat sports. Female boxing and wrestling gets treated like some bizarre sexual fetish and not as a true sport. If anyone knows of any other *good boxing* portrayals, please let me know. Dan _________________________________________________________ Daniel Whitty Mail: 1457 Miller Store Road Programmer Analyst Virginia Beach, VA 23455-3324 Competitive Media Reporting Phone: 804-363-9409 x289 dan@cmr.com FAX: 804-363-0994 _________________________________________________________ ************************************************************** Date: Fri, 08 Apr 94 09:47:17 PST From: ray <60021923@WSUVM1.CSC.WSU.EDU> Subject: Bio, female domination I thought I'd try to get a brief biographical note out here, and then flesh out the details should anyone be curious enough to ask for them. I am a thirty-something male trying to wrap up my Ph.D. out here in the pacific nw. I've been interested in virtually all aspects of Amazon women since my own seduction by one at the rather late age of 18. Since that time, I find myself, no matter what my relationships have been, drifting back to strong, personally autonomous women. Though a couple of them wouldn't think of themselves as Amazons, they certainly would fit the descriptions I've held for many years and which seem to appear in this forum. Frankly, my own relations by women could be equally characterized as female dominated or as b&d relations if one were to label them with the current "in"-denotations found in any city personals section. Nonetheless, I have, for the better part of twenty years now, found myself most comfortable with women who are powerful--and I mean that in both a physical and emotional sense. Though my own attraction to women is for taller women and ones who are physically fit, one of the most Amazonian women I've ever known barely cleared five feet, so I guess size isn't nearly as important to me as attitude. My real awakening came in Europe where, while in the service in Berlin, I lived two years with my Mistress, a Nordic Goddess of the type one seems to find only there. During the tenure of our relationship, I was twice taken to meetings of Dominants or, as I think would also be true, Amazons. Quite an interesting few days to be sure. Out of those experiences I learned that my own interests and proclivities were not so unusual, and so too, I find this forum useful for much the same reason. Finally, I guess if there is a particular interest of my own in relation to this forum, I would have to say that it is talking with others who've had similar experiences in their own relationships since I am curious about the motivation on both sides. Well, that's it for the moment. ray ************************************************************** Date: Wed, 6 Apr 1994 10:38:31 -0000 From: Ricky Gibbons Subject: Musings on Amazonness Dear AI: Just read AI for the first time -- how great! I particularly enjoyed the Truckdiver and Seamstress dichotomy... [Um, I think that probably should be Truckdriver :-) -- Ed.] Amazonness -- very personal definitions seem to be necessary. Size is relative -- and I agree, that physical size has very little to do with "filling" the space you live in -- professional, personal or other. Sometimes size comes with the "job" -- a broad reach into other offices or agencies, and -- handled correctly, can not only create amazonness, but also create imperial regimes that far outreach the job, giving inordinate stature to an individual who parlays that position into a personal empire. This can be for the good of the public weal, or to its denigration... This is exemplified by the responsibility traditionally given to lower level civil servants -- fiscal responsiblity for millions of dollars worth of equipment, programs, etc., and the low pay that comes with that kind of position. How one uses the job, how one connects with the folks in the "field" -- that can be a basis for true amazonness... the capability to leave a lasting, POSITIVE mark on a program directed toward improving human quality of life...and to realize that the effect is positive...what a thrill, and what a reward for the long hours, low pay, and lack of general recognition. Gotta do it because it's RIGHT -- that defines a big person for me. Musings of a working stiff -- loving each minute of it... and knowing that all glory is fleeting and at best, reflective of others.... Ricky Gibbons Civil Servant...! ************************************************************** From: squeezehrd@aol.com Date: Wed, 13 Apr 94 00:53:35 EDT Subject: Bio, bearhugs, attitudes Hi everybody, my name is Rob and I'm 27, 5'9" and 200 lbs. I greatly admire strong, powerful women who are strong in both mind and body. For some reason, I enjoy greatly when a strong woman is able to wrap her arms and legs around me in a bear hug or leg lock type hold and squeeze as hard as she can for as long as she would like. I enjoy the sensation of pain, and the ability to watch the movement of muscles in the powerful arms and legs. I have tried many times to explain why I enjoy this but to no avail. I just do. [You and everybody else. -- Ed.] I consider myself an intelligent person and therefore that is why I also appreciate a strong mind. Mind and body together create an individual. It is important that both are strong and as developed as possible. I have great respect for any individual who develops both their mind and body to the greatest extent. It is these individuals I would classify as Amazons. In my dealings on the various networks, I have seen many unfortunate instances where those who are strong enough to stand up for what they believe have been ridiculed for their beliefs. It is very unfortunate that those who may have desires like mine, or those who take pride in their strength and power, are made to feel inferior by the "mainstream". This cannot happen and it will not happen if we all are guided by the Amazon spirit which permeates here and allows for true freedom of expression. I look forward to hearing insights and views from other subscribers, and hopefully meeting some of you. Thanks, and peace, Rob ************************************************************** Date: Thu, 28 Apr 1994 18:58:01 -0500 (CDT) From: 924LINDSEY@MERLIN.NLU.EDU Subject: Bio, Amazon psyche I have been lurking for several issues and have enjoyed the list. My name is Mary-Katie Lindsey, and I am a graduate assitant in English at Northeast Louisiana University in Monroe. I will graduate in December with my MA + certification to teach high school. Eventually I hope to get my Ph.D. My interests are reading (nearly anything), writing (poetry, erotica, fiction, non-fiction), my cats (five adorable ones!), the Net, and anything that happens to catch my fancy at the time. I also believe with everyone else here that there is much to be gained by being strong in every part of our psyches. The spirit of the Amazon should also be one of strength, firmness, but also friendliness and playfulness. I would be happy to correspond with anyone on the list... mADkAT Mary-Katie Lindsey 924lindsey@merlin.nlu.edu (I respond to anything but 'Mary.') ************************************************************** Date: Wed, 18 May 1994 15:08:27 -0400 (EDT) From: HARDIN_WD@Mercer.PeachNet.Edu Subject: Women in combat This may be of some interest to some of the AI subscribers: I am a Medic in the U.S. Army and I found a terribly interesting piece of information relating to women in combat. During their initial qualifications with the M-16 rifle, females generally did much better in their hit percentages. The male Drill Sergeant confirmed that females are on average better marksmen (forgive the gender biased term) than males. Hummmm, but the military doesn't allow them in combat? Interesting... Yours Truly, Will Hardin hardin_wd@mercer.peachnet.edu acadmn.mercer.peachnet.edu ************************************************************** From: dan.flak@mccaw.com (Dan Flak) Subject: Article Review Date: Thu, 2 Jun 94 16:39:41 PDT I came across an article in this month's (June '94) issue of Cosmopolitan magazine. (I'm the type of guy that reads the labels off cereal boxes, so don't leave anything within arm's reach if you don't want me to read it. :-) The title on the cover of the magazine is "Men who want women to dominate them." While this conjures up visions of a black leather clad dominatrix with whips and chains, and a plethora of other kinky stuff, there are actually only three very nongraphical lines in the article that acknowledge that this kind of stuff exists. The rest of the article does a good job explaining what I consider Amazon sexuality to be. Namely: sometimes us guys just want to sit back and enjoy the ride. It's nice to know that we don't have to be responsible for everything all the time. We can take our eyes off the planet, and it will still turn without us. For me, sex is not a spectator sport (OK, maybe it is for some people of the voyeur persuasion :-) Personally, I don't think it should be a team sport either. My idea is that it's one-on-one. (Yes, the pun is intended.) Just because it isn't a team sport doesn't mean that teamwork is not involved. Women should not be perennial spectators to the lovemaking process. They should be active participants, and when the occasion warrants, they should be the instigators and directors of the action. There is no reason why they shouldn't use their Amazon physiques and physical energy as well. It's a good article. I will confirm that there are some men (at least one) out there who don't mind giving up control from time to time. I wouldn't want to give it up 100% of the time, nor would I give up 100% of the control at any time. It's not that I don't trust my wife; I'm just too turned on by her not to respond. I'm personally surprised that the article was considered worth printing at all. I've always considered shared responsibility to be the natural order in life. Shared responsibility is not always 50-50, and it doesn't even always add up to 100% it's a dynamically moving pendulum -- sometimes it takes a 100-100 effort to make the team succeed, and on some occasions a 0-100 split is best. On a high-performance team, the person in the best position to take action at the critical moment, takes charge. The other members of the team support. As the situation changes, roles may change. Successful teams adapt. Why should life, relationships, careers, or lovemaking be any different? The article recommends that women be proactive, don't wait around to be asked, and take a chance. I agree. What's the worst that can happen? -- You'll get a, "Not tonight dear, I have a headache." Considering the best that can happen, it's worth the risk. Of course, I'm preaching to the choir. Any woman subscribing to this mailing list isn't waiting for something to happen to her, she's making things happen for her. -- Dan Flak -- McCaw Cellular Communications Inc., 5400 Carillon Point, Kirkland, Wa 98033-7397, 206-828-8006, ********************************************************** * Amazons International * * Thomas Gramstad, editor: thomas@smaug.uio.no * * Administravia: amazons-request@math.uio.no * * Submissions: amazons@math.uio.no * ********************************************************** "A Hard Woman is Good to Find" -- The Valkyries