Amazons International # 37
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Contents:         Phyllis: Query about women in armies
                  Jamie: Re: Gripes with recent postings
                  Glory: Notes on Amazonism
                  Douglas W.: Bio
                  Wild Orchid: Bio
                  Bill V.: Intro
                  Sunniva: Bio
                  Thomas: AmazonCon '94?                  



Date of Transmission: 08.02.94

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Date: Sat, 8 Jan 1994 16:25:07 -0500 (EST)
From: prackin@ccat.sas.upenn.edu (Phyllis Rackin)
Subject: query

I'm trying to track down information on women in armies in
late medieval and early modern Europe--especially references
that might have been known in England.  I haven't had much
luck so far, aside from a few obvious examples like Joan of
Arc, Margaret of Anjou, Eleanor of Aquitaine, and Boadicea.
Any leads--especially to information about ordinary women
serving in the rank and file--will be much appreciated.
                                                       
               Phyllis Rackin
	       prackin@mail.sas.upenn.edu

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Date: Thu, 30 Dec 93 17:28:36 EST
From: gairns@ccrs.emr.ca (Jamie Gairns)
Subject: Re: Gripes with recent postings

   I would like to respond to Jennifer in AI # 34.

   I must agree with you Jennifer.  I have seen so many men
who seem to see physical prowess and size as the main
component for being called an Amazon.  If I am wrong, please
forgive my assumptions.  I think the Amazon 'stereotype' MUST
come from the brain first.  I know a woman who I would
definitely consider an Amazon.  She is 82 years old and tough
as nails.  She has been through a lot and has survived it
all.  She is a wonderful woman.  Physically, she is not large
or muscular, but she has all of the component parts of an
Amazon, as far as I am concerned.

   If you are muscular and/or physically large then
wonderful, but (I agree with you) that should not be the
primary criterion for being an Amazon.  You can find a lot of
well-built air-heads out there, but a keen mind is a rare and
precious jewel indeed.

   To be quite honest I find it a little sad that society
must label strong women (emotionally/intellectually/physically)
as being Amazons.  When a woman and a man are equal are we
not simply two equal humans?  Sorry for the melodramatic
metaphors, but it is something I feel very strongly about.
I have a female friend who is the most intelligent person I
know, but she never lords it over me, or anyone for that
matter.  It is refreshing to be in awe of someone's brain for
a change.

   Maybe some of us appreciate strong women so much that we
get a little carried away.  I certainly appreciate a big,
mean old bicep on a woman .. at least I am honest about it,
huh?  I definitely appreciate Jennifer's comments and
criticisms and I would discuss it any time at all.

Jamie Gairns
gairns@ccrs.emr.ca

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Date: 04 Jan 94 11:56:41 EST
From: "Gloria G. Brame" <72230.166@CompuServe.COM>
Subject: Notes on Amazonism and the female potential

Dear Thomas,
 
Thanks for the 3 issues of AI.  There was much food for
thought in these meaty issues, and at least half a dozen
points in the issues elicited immediate strong reactions from
me.  One day (if I ever get the time again!) I'd like to
write something coherent for posting.  Alas, time has been my
scarcest commodity since DifLove's publication.  If any of
the comments below in your opinion are worthy of inclusion in
an AI, however, you have my permission to use them.
 
I read the new issues with interest, partly because some of
the ideals of the Amazon vision perfectly suit my own brand
of eclectic/idiosyncratic feminism (maybe I should start the
EIF? <g>), also because I train with weights.  But I'm about
a foot shorter than most of the women you discuss (5 feet)
and am not aiming for bulk but for strength....so I wasn't
sure how/if I quite fit in with the group.  But I've kept
reading, nonetheless, from interests professional (as you
might guess, I have many different theories and ideas on what
Amazonism means and what its roots are), and personal.  I was
intrigued by the post from Mike Steiner in AI # 36 about the
SF group he's involved with, and am keeping their name on
file for possible future reference.
 
While I very much admire physical power (and find tall,
strong men particularly attractive), I also know that the
true power resides within, and that is the power which I
believe is most stunted by society, in men as well as women,
but most deliberately and toxically in women.  I have long
believed the the phenomena of the so-called "neurotic woman,"
"hysterical female," and "masochistic female," etc., are
socially induced: i.e., that these are stress disorders which
stem directly from the sexual and social oppression of
women--real consequences of frustration, repression, and low
self-esteem--and not from any genetic or biological flaw in
the female organism, which is more or less how the Freudians
see it.
 
As for me...luckily, I never felt intimidated by or socially
submissive to men.  In that respect, I agree with a comment
you made that a woman's muscle-built body expresses a certain
inner reality about her. I think it's changing more and more,
but many of the women (and men) I grew up with (I'm 38) felt
uneasy or even scornful of physical development (seeing it,
I suppose, as the antithesis of and incompatible with
intellectualism).  Well, perhaps we've made some progress in
that a more complete person, one who achieves a harmony
between mind and body by seeking unified strength, is
increasingly viewed as a social ideal--the classical ideal,
actually, but now extended to women.  I think that when
intellectual women pick up weights, they are beginning to
unleash a female potential that has never before been
explored in our culture (or any other that I'm aware of).
I hope I see some positive benefits throughout society from
this trend in my lifetime.  Certainly, when I'm at my
fittest, my own potential seems unlimited.
 
Boy, I am rambling!

DifLove continues to receive attention here, and now seems to
be moving into academic and scholarly circles.  We were put
on the "holiday book list" of AASECT's newsletter (American
Association of Sexuality Educators, Counselors, and
Therapists).  And in April '94 Will and I are featured
speakers on S/M, fetishism, and other topics from our book
at the Eastern Regional Meeting of the Society for the
Scientific Study of Sexuality in Atlanta, GA.  Right now, DL
is back at the printers--the 2nd edition should be available
in 2 weeks.  Also (I may have already mentioned this), the
book was sold in Germany.  So that's some of the good news.
 
All best,
 
Glory

   [Gloria Brame is one of the editors of the book _Different
   Loving: Sexual Minorities in America_.  See AI # 11 and 30
   for further information.  -- Ed.]
 
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From: douglas631@aol.com (Douglas White)
Date: Mon, 10 Jan 94 21:19:12 EST
Subject: Bio

	Hello, my name is Douglas White.  I'm 6'6" (2 m)
tall, 200lbs (91 kg), blue eyes, brown hair.  I'm a CNC
machine tool programmer for a North Carolina manufacturing
company.  I'm thirty-three and currently single.  I'm not
heavily into working out but I do keep myself in good shape
physically through walking and bicycling.  I also enjoy
camping and, weather permitting, swimming.  I've been lurking
on this list a few weeks now and thought it time for an
introduction and bio.
	I've always been attracted to tall women.  I was born
in Cincinnati, Ohio.  The German influence in the city has
left its mark in the statuesque women that reside there.
Most all my relatives on my mothers side of the family (the
prevailing German blood) stand at 5'10" or above.  Yes, the
women included.  I believe the women of that city have left
their mark on me.  The art of Boris Vallejo has probably been
the next largest factor in my appreciation of strong women.
His work shows not only the strength of these women but also,
their sensual, sensitive and feminine qualities.

	Amazon qualities in my view are more a combination of
poise, confidence, and inner emotional as well as outer
physical strength rather than just stature or pure physical
strength.  A true Amazon woman should be just as comfortable
in a cocktail dress at a formal dinner party as she is
working out at the gym or playing football with the guys.
She should be a strong leader and someone who can take charge
in most any situation.  Being strong and aggresive when she
must and yet in touch with her feminine side when she so
desires.  She should not feel that she must go out of her way
to prove to anyone that she is fully a mans equal and capable
of taking care of herself.  She KNOWS that she is :-).  She
doesn't seek a career as a plumber or welder in order to make
a statement about female/male equality.  She chooses her
profession based solely on what she wants to do.

	An Amazon mate should be my equal intellectually as
well as physically.  If not directly then indirectly through
our own respective individual stengths.  I have no fantasies
about being overpowered by a woman (though the idea of having
her wrestle me to the bed in the heat of passion and saying
"baby, I'm going to rock your world" does put a smile on my
face!).  She should have no desire to dominate me in any
manner.  Nor I her.  We respect each others beliefs, wants,
and ideas.  We live and love together working for our own and
each others mutual happiness.

	There has been a slant towards a subject content of
women and bodybuilding in the past few issues. Hopefully this
will help steer the conversation to a new vector.

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Date: Thu, 20 Jan 94 20:21:20 PST
From: Wild Orchid
Subject: Bio

Hi.  This is a submission, and I would like to do this
anonymously, with the pseudonym Wild Orchid.  I am extremely
new to AI, and to electronic mail, in general.  In browsing
the Internet selections, I happened across this newsletter my
very first day.  I'm not sure if I fit the role of what is
considered an Amazon.  My physical stature is a rather large
woman on a nedium frame.  My physical strength is not at the
place I would like it.

I attribute some of the weight to the restrictions of a
physical disability: scoliosis, trichanteric bursitis,
coccydynia, and pelvic lordosis.  But I do have aspirations
to begin some type of martial arts training.  I would
appreciate support in the venture of seeking physical
conditioning and more control.  Suggestions with regard to
what type of training or exercises might be beneficial, but
with low risk of injury would also be welcomed.

I consider myself to be strictly heterosexual, and somewhat
dominant in bed.  For whatever reason, I have a stronger
sexual appetite than most of my past partners.  Is this
something which might be characteristic of an Amazon?  I have
noticed something about myself since becoming "larger". . .
more men proposition me now, than did when I was a size 12.
I know I am street-smart, and display confidence in my walk.
A survivor of too many years of abuse, I seriously think I
would kill any man who attempted to physically hurt me now.

A nontraditional student at a small community college, I find
that most of the men I meet and date are younger than me.  I
never gave it much thought until recently -- I can now admit
that I prefer to date younger men.  Still I don't see myself
as a feminist, or at least not in the way the media portrays
them.

I am interested in knowing if there truly are women who live
to wear denim and leather, who own their sexuality, and are
extremely interested in martial arts and Harley-Davidsons...
or am I the only one?  And are there really single men out
there who long to hear that we exist?  [YES!!  -- Ed.]  I
don't just want to ride on the back of a bike -- I want to
feel its strong vibrations penetrate me between my legs!

WILD ORCHID

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Date: Fri, 4 Feb 94 10:53:20 EST
From: Bill V.
Subject: Intro

Hello all... this is a short intro, I am interested in the
topic of Amazons both real and fictional.....  I have found
that size does not equal Amazon..as I have known many 5'
women who are more of an Amazon than some 6'3 person.  My
interests are female boxing, wrestling...karate or kickboxing
plus other interests...........  I dont believe in gender
ideas.....I think a person can do whatever they want.....man
or woman.......

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Date: Mon, 24 Jan 1994 12:53:55 +0100
From: sunniva@ifi.uio.no (Sunniva Morstad)
Subject: Bio

I have been on this list from the very beginning when Thomas
started it in 1991.  It`s fun to see how many subcribers
there are now, and I really don`t know if Thomas imagined
that Amazons International would become so popular.  And now
it`s time for me to write my bio so that people around get to
know me better.  From the beginning of February, I and my
lovely husband [Svein Olav Nyberg; see his bio in AI # 27
-- Ed.] will stay in Vancouver in Canada until December this
year, and I would like to meet some of you Amazons out there.

I am an Amazon, proud of calling me exactly that.  I am slim,
5'7" and at the moment untrained.  Have I therefore lost the
right to call myself an Amazon?  No, I would say.  Because I
love strength -- physical and mental.  If it were a criterion
to be minimum 6 feet tall to be an Amazon, I would laugh and
shake my head.  Nobody can decide for others what to look
like.  I wanted to be 6', but I didn't grow into that huge,
tall body I wanted to be.  I would call it stupidity to
hinder or throw away women because their height didn't fit a
schema of what an Amazon should be.  What I will call an
Amazon is a woman who wants, likes and loves strength: she
will get stronger and more muscular because there is a great
pleasure in having a strong, huge body.  And she will also
like the mental strength which means that nobody can control
or dictate her mind, opinions or lifestyle.  I haven't
experienced so many situations were men and women have
treated me as if I had no power in my arms, although there
have been some and they have made me extremely irritated.
But I have too often experienced some men's attitude against
women: we are not allowed to be smarter than them; or even
worse: women can't be intellectual.  Nothing can turn me as
angry as encountering such an attitude.
 
Therefore I will also stress the importance of the mental
strenght as part of being an Amazon.

Well, that was almost all I had on my mind at this time, only
some pratical things left.

I really would like to meet some of you in Vancouver / nearby
areas.  I need to meet other Amazons and have a good time.  I
am also looking for a training partner, because (1) I want to
turn my body into a strong and muscular one, and (2) I have
problems maintaining a regular schedule when working out just
by myself.  By the way, do any of you know a good place to
work out in Vancouver (I'm a student so I can't afford too
much)?

Sunniva

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Date: Mon, 7 Feb 1994
From: Thomas Gramstad <thomas@math.uio.no>
Subject: AmazonCon '94?

As Sunniva says, she and Svein Olav will stay in Vancouver
for a year from now.  I plan to visit them some time during
the summer.  We will probably do some travelling.  So if you
are somewhere in the area, or perhaps on the other side of
the border, would you like to meet us?

Or how about organizing an AmazonCon this summer?  If this
appeals to you, drop me a note, and based on the interest we
can plan what to do.
                     - Thomas

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*  Amazons International                                 *
*  Thomas Gramstad, editor:         thomas@smaug.uio.no  *
*  Administravia:           amazons-request@math.uio.no  *
*  Submissions:                     amazons@math.uio.no  *
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"A Hard Woman is Good to Find"  -- The Valkyries