Amazons International # 21 ************************** Topics: Adrian: Bio Matt: Bio Joe & Patty: Bio Icehawk: Re: Two kinds of equality Thomas: Bodybuilding and gender bending ************************************************************** Date: 27 Aug 92 15:34:10 EDT From: Adrian Miner <76440.3277@CompuServe.COM> Subject: Bio My name is Adrian Miner and I am a disabled 20-yr old man. I am a big fan of female bodybuilding. I feel that bodybuilders are beautiful in a very capable and independent way. I am also impressed by women who unleash their bodies' potential and break stereotypes. I respect women who work out and go against society's expectations. Ever since I was a child, I have respected and been attracted to women who are strong in different ways. I read many feminist books, my mother's. Even though the books did not address female athleticism, they set a foundation for interesting me in women who fought for equality and refused to act passively. It wasn't until high school and watching ESPN and other sports shows. I was amazed at the first female bodybuilder I saw. I had no idea that women could get to be so strong and have such massive muscles. I instantly related it to my earlier interest in feminism and was hooked. I hate women who act submissively. There is nothing sexy or attractive about weakness. I feel that muscle size, hairstyles, clothing, and attitude all combine to make a statement about how you want to be perceived by others. It is a tragedy that society wants women to express passivity. Amazons break stereotypes and I admire them for it. I love to watch sports, especially strength sports. I like sports that require raw strength. I also like baseball, basketball, football. Female strength is very interesting and fascinating to me. The Amazon movement holds great promise in creating a world where strength, not weakness is a feminine virtue, and sex won't predetermine your whole life at birth. To all Amazons out there, keep fighting, I'll support you. ************************************************************** Date: Fri, 28 Aug 92 08:57:32 -0700 From: Matt Subject: Bio Well, I've been reading this newsletter long enough that it's about time I donated to it. I'm not experienced enough to write some of those juicy fictions, but I hope that my sharing about my love and admiration of Amazons will encourage others to share. After all, we come in all shades. I am an Irish-American Catholic who has been enamored by muscular women for as long as I remember. I suppressed it for some time because, at an early age, I didn't realize, there weren't any strong (either physically or emotionally) women portrayed in the media here. Except for my mother, of course, and Joan of Arc. Boy, does she have left hook. I have also been enamored by African-American women and for just about as long as well. Once again, I suppressed such a desire to be with an African-American woman for some time because of cultural oppression over what "should be." I don't want to make a comparison of oppression of African-Americans and Amazons, yet it seems strange that our (the US) society seems to consider both as being abnormal. We all suffer because of this. Anyway, when the Olympics were on in this country, I was on Cloud 9, watching the women's track and field. I wanted to see more of the women's basketball team, but I could not afford pay-per-view (BOOO!). I think that having a woman like Flo-Jo on television last Olympics has been uniquely responsible for the increase in black women-white men marriages in this country. I hope the trend doesn't disappear. I was in an engaged relationship with an African-American Amazon wannabe. She wanted to be an Amazon, but I think her own lack of self-esteem kept her from stepping out. She liked working out, but she was still very timid, and that kept her from fully developing the Amazon within her. I'm now looking for a new relationship with an African-American Amazon. I think that muscles underneath ebony skin is so gorgeous!! In fact, there's one woman at the gym I work out at who has the buffest thighs and butt I've ever seen in my life!! She has no interest in me, but I like to fantasize. If anyone has access to some posters of some of the African-American Amazons in professional bodybuilding, if it is all right with Thomas, I would like you to let Thomas know so I can get a hold of you. I especially love Lenda Murray (I have a centerfold of her from one magazine) and Carla Dunlap. [If you want to send mail to Matt, send it to me and I will relay it. -- Thomas] Thanks for letting me ramble. Matt ************************************************************** Date: Wed, 9 Sep 92 14:43:38 PDT From: Joe Thomas Subject: Bio: Joe & Patty Hi, I'm Joe, and I've recently read all the back issues. I certainly have found a home. I'm 5'5", an ex-high school and collegiate wrestler, and have always been attracted to powerful women. My first serious girlfriend was 5'11", I've had serious relationships with only 2 women of my height, my wife-to-be Patty is 5'10" and fully embodies the Amazon spirit. She is also the shortest in her family. The way I generally describe Patty is that "She kicks ass and takes no shit". She is powerfully built and athletic with her favorite sports being baseball and paintball guns. Aggressive is an understatement with her, she tends to quickly escalate to violence (or the threat of violence) to diffuse confrontation. She is not afraid to throw or take a punch, and is the sexiest woman I know. Patty also has performed one of the most violent moves I've ever seen. She and one of our roommates were wrestling. John had managed to control her arms by wrapping his around her. She powered herself up, put both feet about 4 feet up on the wall, got her knees to her face, and launched the both of them across the room into the fireplace. John fortunately got one arm down, soo his head did not make first impact, and no major damage was done. Patty's response, laughter and a taunting "Best to remember who you are fucking with...." to John's sprawled body. Patty detests weakness, especially in women. Manipulation, subterfuge or passive/agressive styles are all hot buttons. Both of us are strong-willed and there is a definate synergy between the two of us that makes us both stronger. It was love at first sight for me when we first met 5 years ago, we've been living together for 3 years, and will be married in April. We are combining our last names, hers is Auran, mine is Thomas so it will be Joe and Patty Auranthomas, no hyphen. Patty is a Leo, and in my mind embodies the Queen of Swords in the Tarot. There is no consistent dominant/submissive pattern in our relationship, we see each other as equals and best friends. Keep up the good work Thomas! ************************************************************** Date: Mon, 21 Sep 92 10:19:45 EDT From: Icehawk Subject: Re: Two kinds of equality Well, to put it bluntly: since when does being equal mean being identical? Thomas writes very eloquently about _equality through complementarity_, and I agree whole-heartedly with him! The thing is, I never implied in my original post that Lady Hawk and I were somehow clones! [...and neither did I, Icehawk! -- Thomas] Of course there are differences between us, and there are some similarities as well, that is one of the wonderful things about being in a relationship. It's impossible for human beings to be so similar as to be identical, and I wouldn't have it any other way! Let me explain . . . no, it's too much, let me sum up: Equals physically: neither of us so weak as to need constant protection from the either. I'm stronger, but she is much faster. Equals mentally: neither of us is stupid. I'm better with history and math, she understands English and writing better. Equals sprititually: we both recognize that neither is below the other, or some how less important. Equals socially: see above. Hope that clears up any confusion. It was a fantastic piece of writing Thomas, but it really wasen't necessary! :-) Icehawk ************************************************************** You've got to fight every day/Don't give in and call it fate Stu Hamm THE URGE ************************************************************** [You think my article unnecessary because you consider it to be some sort of reply or counterargument to your posting. However, my article wasn't a reply to any particular posting, but an independent article inspired by a trend of several contributors emphasizing the importance of similarities. Now, I certainly have no disagreement with that. However, I'd like to put some focus on valuable and stimulating differences, i.e. complementarities, a topic that I find more difficult and challenging to understand: For example, why is it that some differences are complementary, while others are neutral and yet others are antagonistic? Why are some differences attractive while others are alienating? What is the difference between such differences? When we emphasize similarities, we are talking about well-known and identified important parts of ourselves, that we recognize in the other person. But what are complementarities? Are they parts of oneself that are not yet clearly understood or developed? Parts that are somewhat neglected or incomplete and nevertheless important, and that's why they are attractive when we encounter them in someone who has developed or expressed them more fully? I think there is a lot of stuff buried here, about gender role stereotypes and a corresponding repression of values, interests and personality traits. Complementarities, gender bending and so on -- I'd like to see a debate about those. -- Thomas] ************************************************************** From: Thomas Gramstad Subject: Gender roles and gender bending in bodybuilding In issue # 20 Val Rodgers wrote: > The sport of bodybuilding has a double standard. The men > who succeed are muscular beyond belief, yet women win when > they lean towards the feminine look. That is not what > bodybuilding is all about. It is not a beauty contest! > Someone like Arnold S. or Lee Haney take their sport to its > limits and are labelled as heroes, but a woman does the > same and is labelled a freak! > > A muscular body - male or female - is a work of art. > Muscles portray strength, independence, pride. I guess > society does not want women to possess these traits! I am > ashamed that our culture continues to see women as > secondary to men. Not allowing women to be the best they > can in the sport of bodybuilding - and indeed life! - is > just another example of the male domination of our society > and the sex discrimination that continues to haunt us. While I agree fully with this, and applaud the tone it is written in, I'd like to point out that the grey mass of gender role traditionalists seems to comprise a whole lot of women as well. It's not only a case of insecure males who need to assert some sort of superiority over smaller and weaker females (though that certainly is a part of it too). In school, indeed even in kindergarten, girls start treating "boy-like girls" or tomboys badly, while boys often accept them. I'm sure many of the female membership here who were tomboys can testify that most of their friends were boys, while the girls froze them out. Even as limiting and harmful as traditional gender roles are, they do offer a few pay-offs for those who get used to them, and for some people they certainly offer a kind of regular, predictable "security" (the golden cage or some such). For the women who accept such a role the image of the Amazon becomes a threat and a reminder of things they have renounced or aspects of themselves that they have never developed or expressed. Not surprising then that they attack and condemn their self-reliant and accomplished sisters, as an external stand-in for attacking their own bad conscience! In her article (see reference in # 18), Marcia Ian describes how she expected the gym to be a place where people could embark on a joint adventure of gender bending in the quest for becoming a more fully developed person, while what she experienced too often were the same old stereotypes and the male-female double standard. I'm wondering how uniform or dominating this pattern is. For example, take the case of couple's bodybuilding. It seems to be a rule that the man must be bigger and taller than the woman. Does anyone know of a single example of a couple in a competition where the female were as tall as and/or as big as the man, and if so, the reactions among the judges and in the public? Or, to take this even a bit further: what would happen if a couple where the female were taller and/or bigger than the male entered a contest? What would be the reactions among the judges and in the public? That surely would be an interesting venture into gender bending. - Thomas ********************************************************* * Amazons International: thomas@smaug.uio.no * * Thomas Gramstad, editor * ********************************************************* "A Hard Woman is Good to Find" -- The Valkyries