Amazons International # 11 -------------------------- Topics: Thomas: Interview for _Different Loving_ ---------------------------------------------------------- Welcome to another issue of Amazons International! It's been a typical "long time, no see"; a big workload, exams in May, and two associations of which I'm a member of the board take their time. But Amazons International lives, though she may hibernate at unpredictable intervals. This issue contains the meat of a lengthy interview with me, done by E-mail, for a book to be published next year titled _Different Loving: Sexual Minorities in America_. I was able to provide a lot of information and references for two of the chapters of that book, the one about Amazons and the other about erotic combat. In fact, the book may be somewhat reorganized due to my input. They are still interested in more information and possible interviewees; if you're interested in this, mail me and I'll send you further information about the project. Though hibernating, the membership has been steadily rising, 62 at the last count. I have received two submissions that will go in the next issue; this one is too long already, and those two alone are too short for one issue. I presume that the following text will generate some discussion or other submissions; if it doesn't I'll write about the Bem sex role inventory and have AI # 12 ready in the near future anyway. And now for the interview. You may recognize a few of the answers from previous issues of Amazons International; however, in most cases they are expanded and elaborated upon here. I have permitted myself a few polemical phrases here and there, hope you don't mind. - Thomas -------------------------------------------------------------------- 8. When did you found AMAZONS INTL? Why did you found it? I founded Amazons International in April 1991. I saw a need for a forum whose purpose is to explore the many aspects and forms of expression of what might be called heroic womanhood -- that is, a vision of females at their best; as strong, independent, accomplished and whole human beings in growth. I wanted a forum that would focus on concretizations of this theme, and give the message that it is this ideal that is the basis for things like self-actualization, fulfillment and attractivity -- counteracting the destructive culture-wide message that women have to be small, weak, helpless, submissive and stupid in order to be "feminine", attractive etc. I perceive the Amazon as the concrete expression of this ideal. We are talking about physically and psychologically strong, assertive women who are not afraid to break free from traditional ideas about gender roles, relationships and femininity or "feminine interests and behavior". (Or, even if they are afraid, who still want to go through with it.) Amazons International will encourage such developments by serving and nurturing a network of people sharing values and insights in this area. So I have three broad, general goals for Amazons International: FUN, LEARNING and MORAL SUPPORT. Fun: How fun it is to be or to know an Amazon! Learning: All the things you can do or be as an Amazon or as a friend of one! Moral support: There is nothing wrong and everything right about being a strong and active female who doesn't like or fit in with the femininity as weakness, wimpiness and subordination thing. 9. Have you been pleased with the newsletter's growth? Absolutely. The topics covered have been very broad in scope, ranging from discussions about issues like gender roles and psychological androgyny, to sports and physicality, to fantasies and erotic combat stories. There is a wide range of backgrounds and angles to the subject among the participants. 10. What interests does the newsletter cover? (including arm wrestling, bodybuilding, etc.) Topics covered include but are not limited to: mixed wrestling female fighting arm wrestling bodybuilding weight lifting strength feats boxing kick boxing Here one may write about the wrestling match one had with one's lover yesterday, or one may recommend or review relevant literature (historical, contemporary or fictitious), or one may share information about relevant events, publications, institutions etc. Participants are encouraged to write about their favorite literature, activities or stories. Historical, anthropological or science fiction/fantasy stuff about Amazons and Amazon cultures is also welcome here. Sexuality: The experiences, attitudes, practices and emotional experiences that are only possible in the company of Amazons. Political, ethical and religious issues may be discussed when they are relevant to the Amazon concept or to how Amazons are perceived and treated. 11. What is the philosophy of AMAZONS INTL? Amazons International is dedicated to the image of the female hero in fiction and in fact, as it is expressed and concretized in art and literature, in the physiques and feats of female athletes, and in sexual values, practices and experiences. Amazons International has a broad scope and aims at integrating many (dare I say 'all'?) different angles and concretizations of heroic womanhood and Amazon physicality. 12. What are the characteristics of the ideal Amazon? Here are what I consider some typical and important Amazon characteristics: (I hasten to add that I do not claim that this is an exhaustive list; nor do I claim that all these characteristics have to be present, nor that they have the same degree of importance. They are, however, personality traits or perceptual concretes that I immediately associate with 'Amazon'.) -- athletically built; strong, muscular (and proud of it) -- courageous, self-assertive, capable of independent decision-making and action -- a particular "heavy" or unconsciously self-confident way of walking, stressing certainty and physical strength ("cat-like") -- she "owns and occupies" her physical space through her body language -- she doesn't "shrink" herself by trying to appear small or by trying not to occupy her space -- preference for "rough", practical clothing (e.g. sportswear, jeans, leather jackets) -- a "strong" face, direct and vivid eyes (hard to be specific here, but it's the opposite of the kind of ethereal, non-emotional, remote, passive, away-from-this-world-looking expression that one may find in some artworks that are considered to express "femininity"). Having a "defined" angular face may add to the 'Amazon image'. -- her looks is not the most important part of her self-concept (even if she is photo-model beautiful) -- no or little make-up/fake-up -- a direct and open personality; no unsincere behavior (such as pretensions, coquettishness, manipulations etc.). 13. Is she likely to be athletic? Oh yes, that's not only likely, it is absolutely necessary. Of course, a woman may be courageous, intelligent or sensual without being athletic, but in that case she is not an Amazon. Physicality is an essential and distinctive characteristic of an Amazon. 14. Does psychological androgyny play a role? Let me put it this way: an Amazon is likely to be either psychologically androgynous or even "masculine"; however, it is not necessarily the case that a psychologically androgynous (or even psychologically masculine) woman is an Amazon. This is because the concept 'psychologically androgynous' is a statistical aggregate of a large number of personality features (referring to the Bem Sex Role Inventory) which may be present in very different combinations and degrees. Of these features, only a few are essential and necessary parts of the Amazon concept. However, it is possible to be psychologically androgynous or even masculine and still have a low score on these selected features (e.g., non-physical masculine and non-physical psychologically androgynous women are not Amazons). Thus, it would be tempting to claim that 'Amazon' is a category that consists of a subset of the psychologically androgynous women and a subset of the masculine women. However, even this claim would be inaccurate. I can imagine cases in which a woman scores high on many of the "feminine" characteristics of the Bem Sex Role Inventory (e.g., she loves children, is gentle, soft-spoken etc.) -- and also scores high on a selected few of the masculine or androgynous characteristics, namely the Amazon ones -- and still ends up on the feminine side of the Bem scale. In fact, I just tested this by filling out the Inventory form in the following way: (1) I gave high scores on all feminine characteristics that are compatible with being an Amazon; (2) I gave high scores on the masculine characteristics that are essential for being an Amazon and (3) I gave moderately high scores on the other masculine characteristics. As I suspected, this averaged out on the feminine end of the Bem scale. In other words, a woman who is an Amazon may come out on the feminine side of the Bem scale. So, Amazons may challenge our conventional notions about gender and gender roles in a number of ways. An Amazon may possess mostly masculine characteristics and be overall masculine -- or she may possess many masculine and feminine traits in similar degrees and be overall psychologically androgynous -- or she may even possess a lot of feminine traits in a high degree and a few key masculine traits, making her overall feminine and yet an Amazon. No doubt this variety can confuse and upset anybody who wants a simple world of fixed gender role stereotypes. 15. In your opinion, what sort of people are likely to be interested in erotic combat? (Male and female) I believe there is a prevalence of people who are: -- physical (i.e. they are physically active, interested in athletic activities, as well as being sensual and in good contact with the internal signals of their body. There is a harmony or integration of their physiological, emotional and mental attributes.) -- independent and with a fairly high self-esteem (this is necessary because of the cultural stereotypes with respect to gender roles. Thus, both becoming an Amazon and becoming a person who may proudly avow a love for Amazons is a task that requires hard work and struggle against a big opposition -- an opposition of people as well as of false and harmful ideas.) 16. What is so attractive or exciting about female fighting? It stresses the fact that females are _physical_ beings (as opposed to 'ethereal' or otherworldly) -- they are real and alive, full of blood, sweat, sounds, passions, smells and tastes. This is very refreshing in a culture that worships an anemic, fragile, aseptic, passive and sterile conception of women. Who wants to feel like a brute dealing with fragile and dead porcelain? Besides, it's always a thrill to speculate and see who wins a fight! 17. In your experience, are men and women equally interested in erotic combat? In my experience, more men than women have an identified and expressed interest in erotic combat. This may also be established by reading erotic combat publications. I think that the cause of this is the cultural stereotypes and conformity pressures associated with the social construction of gender and gender roles, in particular the notions of "femininity" and "masculinity", in our culture. It is more accepted for a man than for a woman to engage in combat, aggressive or assertive behavior, physical or sexual domination etc. because these are commonly perceived as "masculine" traits. An athletical, muscular body is also considered by many to be "masculine". Thus, many women are alienated from their natural physicality -- they do not identify it, express it, appreciate it, or develop it. This is an area where good feminists or anybody who loves women have a lot of work to do. I consider this alienation to be one of our culture's greatest perversions and crimes, and its continued perpetration makes all of us that much poorer. 18. In your opinion, what is the most popular reason for people to pursue these interests? (is it erotic? purely physical? purely psychological?) It is a blend of factors from all those areas (erotic, purely physiological and purely psychological) -- while the composition of the blend may vary (between individuals as well as over time in the same individual), the common element is a unified intense experience that is both erotic, physiological and psychological in nature. It is a unified physical-sensual experience. 19. Can you describe a typical combat fantasy? I'll give an example of one, which was submitted to and printed in my newsletter: [Keith's story; see AI # 8] 20. Is it difficult for people to make contact with those who share the interest? What options are available to them for social contacts? Well, I was alone with my interest in this area for a long time. However, I do think that the US is the country with most organized activity in this area -- there are today a lot of publications, clubs and other institutions devoted to Amazons. The whole subject matter is becoming more visible, and I believe that we will see a development of people networking and forming subcultures, relationships and customs based on improved and enriched ideas about gender and personal relationships, ideas that will permit and enhance personal development into whole human beings rather than the one-dimensional and crippled stereotypes that still are dominating the culture. The many crises and breakdowns of relationships based on traditional gender roles and the increased independence and empowerment of women (both existentially, psychologically, financially and physically) will facilitate this development and induce women and men to form and express their own values. The days of the stereotypic gender role domination are numbered -- it's a dead horse, and it's been stinking for a long time. Let's get the cadaver into the ground! So it's becoming easier to make contact with people who share these perspectives and interests. Available options include joining institutions, go to events, meet people, read publications, answer personal ads in the publications etc. And, of course, join activities where it is likely to meet people with similar interests (gyms, clubs etc.). Also, it helps if one is willing and able to travel to meet the right people. Also, I'd like to point out the fact that today there is a growing number of people actually making a living out of different aspects of Amazon physicality -- making movies, artworks, promoting Amazon models, organizing combat clubs (erotic or otherwise), publishing magazines etc. Now, these acitivities range all over the spectrum -- from the positive, creative and visionary to the seedy and exploitative -- but my point is that anything that can successfully be made into a living has a future. Amazons and their lovers are not only here to stay -- they are growing in numbers and visibility, becoming a cultural factor. 21. Do you have any theories on how the interest in erotic combat develops in an individual? Does it begin early in life or later on? I believe it develops early in life, even though it may remain unidentified until adult life. I think there are several important factors influencing this development, such as: -- some of the child's first sensual experiences may be related to fights or play-fights with other children -- there may be some innate developmental mechanisms in children leading them to test their own strength and dexterity -- at the same time the child goes through different stages of erotic and sensual development -- everybody wants to admire somebody, and a healthy athletical physique is something that is very visible and easy/natural to admire: it is a structural expression of the capability for efficient action, and in our culture heroism is understood in terms of courage expressed in great deeds, i.e. as right action. Thus, the heroic is often symbolized and concretized in an athletical physique (consider e.g. ancient Greek male statues; or the popularity of contemporary athletes). -- the need for intimacy and love is a part of the human condition. Now, in my view, intimacy comes in many forms, and in a close relationship it is necessary that intimacy is not restricted to tender, soft or 'romantic' interactions; if the relationship is to be whole and all-encompassing it must also include rough, passionate and aggressive interactions, because these elements are parts of human nature as well. I believe that a wide-spread problem in relationships is the lack of an ability to find an appropriate form of expression of aggressive impulses -- resulting in either unproductive quarrels or in violence, or in repression and withdrawal. Erotic combat, aside from its inherent sensual pleasures and its symbolical associations, may provide a safe outlet for spill-over energies and aggressive impulses. Thus, such impulses may become a resource that may enhance the joy and intimacy in a relationship (rather than, say, appearing to be a threat against a vulnerable, 'romantic' state of mind which is equated with "love" or "intimacy"). So I think that an interest for erotic combat is not primarily the result of some kind of accidental events that happen to affect some freak individuals; on the contrary, I think it is a part of the natural processes of human development -- in particular, the development of sensuality, the need for somebody to admire, the need for testing one's own strength and for finding appropriate ways of expressing energy and aggressive impulses. Perhaps a substantial part of contemporary relationship problems is due to distortions of these developmental processes by the artefactual gender role stereotyping dominating our culture. 22. Is a fascination for Amazons exclusively related to or caused by an interest in erotic combat? No. Amazon physicality is wider than combat, erotic or otherwise, and erotic combat is only one (although an important one) of the many ways to express and live out a love for Amazons. Also, it is only one of a great many ways of inducing intense sensual experiences in a lover that is exclusively and uniquely possible for an Amazon. That is to say, there are sensual experiences that only an Amazon can give you. Such as being lifted or carried by her, or riding her, or being beaten in arm wrestling or other physical games by her. Then there are all the things that are just so much better with an Amazon than with Ms. Fragile Femme -- ranging from bear hugs to body worship. With an Amazon, you can perceive and experience the power and force of life so much stronger and deeper and unrestrained, both in her and in yourself. Amazons are the real thing -- women as they "might be and ought to be". Amazons are actualizing the full potential of the female form. Isn't it strange that anyone can consider this a controversial activity? As an example of this perspective, I offer another story that was printed in my newsletter: [Limberjack's tale -- see AI # 5] 23. Do you feel there are connections between an interest in erotic combat and Dominance & Submission? If so, what are they? Well, if your Amazon lover is much stronger than you, and you appreciate or even revel in that fact, and create situations that accentuate it, then obviously you have a great trust in your lover -- that she won't hurt or harm you. Placing yourself in situations that gives your lover this kind of "control" over you -- including your sensual or erotic responses -- can build and expand the trust between lovers immensely, creating a unique kind of intimacy and bonding -- a feeling that you and she are part of the same benevolent universe. This is an example of dominance & submission, with an Amazon in the dominant role. The Amazon can use her physical prowess as a means of sexual domination, and erotic role playing games may be created and enacted with this as a central motive. Or the lovers may be equals in physical prowess, and yet pursue an interest in dominance & submission; they may prefer fixed roles (one always dominating, the other always submissive) or they may prefer to switch roles often or sometimes; who plays what role may be decided through erotic combat. ********************************************************* * Amazons International: thomasg@ulrik.uio.no * * Thomas Gramstad, editor * ********************************************************* "A Hard Woman is Good to Find" -- The Valkyries